Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[DgnBiscuit]

I know this isn't the first time this idea's come up, but I kinda think there should be a watchman position in the military or guard somewhere. It seems like with all the kobolds and goblins trying to break into the fort that my dwarves would make a concerted effort to actually detect them in advance, rather than waiting for a horde of them to mysteriously appear in the food stockpile. I find it a little irritating that the best method of detection is a narrow hall with a dog roped in it or a cat behind a window. That's one step up from wandering around blindfolded and waiting to bump into goblins (which is essentially what dwarves do now). I can understand a snatcher or a thief making through the careful eye of a watchman to the fort, but twenty spear wielding goblins is a different story. What are the disguised as? The worlds quickest moving forest? On a glacier? I think if goblins get detailed plans of the fortress and all it's valuables (and babies) the least the dwarves should be able to do is find someone with 20/20 vision to stick on a wall and watch over the front gate.

I don't think it'd be a huge change for game AI either: If you limit the number of people on watch to either one person or one squad, then give them a detection radius and detection efficiency it should have a negligible effect on fps, much smaller than pathfinding for the units, for example. It would also make more sense for the units that are on patrol, and get rid of the only explanation I have for why they can't seem to see that there are goblins stalking them (i.e. they have their helmets on backwards).

-D.B.

[Cespinarve]

Myself, I'd probably have two small squads, one to each entrance. I mean, as it currently stands, you can do the same with military squads, but they get mad about being on long patrol. A designated watchmen guard- giving the fortress guard an actual purpose, would be great.

[Jake]

We already have this capability. You can stagger schedules so you never leave a squad on guard duty for more than a month at a time, and it only takes one or two militia on stag to see off the odd would-be thief.

[Cespinarve]

Yeah, but militia should be for military response. To get political, there's a reason that many modern cultures demand a distinct between a civil police force, and a military. Since we already have Fortress Guards, i'd like to see them do some guard work. I'd like to see a separate squad screen for them too.

[Brotato]

I definitely like this idea more uses for the fortress guards (or something else until you get a fortress guard) would be useful.

[DgnBiscuit]

We already have this capability. You can stagger schedules so you never leave a squad on guard duty for more than a month at a time, and it only takes one or two militia on stag to see off the odd would-be thief.

Thieves aren't really the issue, ambushes are. I don't have any problem seeing a lone goblin sneaking. I do have a problem seeing twenty goblins saunter up and surround my guys without any advance warning. And, really, letting your squad's detect ambushes is about as effective as testing the sharpness of something with your face: Yes, it does work, but it's stupid and defeats the purpose. Why can't dwarves just have a chance to notice the crudely painted bushes with spears and axes poking out from over the top of them at a distance greater than zero feet away?

-D.B.
 

[Max White]

If your reasoning for this position is to make a distintion between military, and civial police, wouldn't your captain of the guard and he's squad make a fine choice?

[DgnBiscuit]

If your reasoning for this position is to make a distintion between military, and civial police, wouldn't your captain of the guard and he's squad make a fine choice?

...actually, no. That really has nothing to do with my reasoning for this.... My reasoning for this is that there is currently *no* early detection in the game *possible*, which kinda goes against any sort of common sense whatsoever. If I give you a plot of land and tell you that a bunch of nasty goblins are going to try and stealthly come and kill you in your sleep, will you proceed to walk around blindfolded so as to give them the best opportunity to do so. Let's examine a common scenario:

Dwarf: Gee I hope there are no goblins here. I can't be bothered to actually look up from my shoes to see if there are any, though.
Goblin: *bump*
Dwarf: HOLY CRAP! I JUST RAN INTO A GOBLIN.

I think it'd be just a *little* more realistic if it was like:

Dwarf: HOLY CRAP! THAT SHRUB HAS A MACE HEAD! GOBLINS ARE TRYING TO SNEAK INTO THE BASE! THEY'RE CURRENTLY A SCANT 12 TILES FROM THE ENTRANCE!

-D.B.

[NW_Kohaku]

Thieves aren't really the issue, ambushes are. I don't have any problem seeing a lone goblin sneaking. I do have a problem seeing twenty goblins saunter up and surround my guys without any advance warning. And, really, letting your squad's detect ambushes is about as effective as testing the sharpness of something with your face: Yes, it does work, but it's stupid and defeats the purpose. Why can't dwarves just have a chance to notice the crudely painted bushes with spears and axes poking out from over the top of them at a distance greater than zero feet away?

-D.B.

This is what guard dogs are for... and guard hoary marmots and whatever other critters you want to get cut down.

Also, cutting the landscape so as to filter enemies through bottlenecks long before they hit your fortress is one of the best ways to handle these sorts of things.  One of the things I really like about embarking on hills or mountains is that simply cutting away the ramps in all but a few areas turns natural terrain into a giant maze that switches back and forth very easily, and helps funnel enemies into a few obvious areas they have to attack you from (cage traps and chained animals can be put here), well before they hit your fortress proper.

[Max White]

If your reasoning for this position is to make a distintion between military, and civial police, wouldn't your captain of the guard and he's squad make a fine choice?

...actually, no. That really has nothing to do with my reasoning for this.... My reasoning for this is that there is currently *no* early detection in the game *possible*, which kinda goes against any sort of common sense whatsoever. If I give you a plot of land and tell you that a bunch of nasty goblins are going to try and stealthly come and kill you in your sleep, will you proceed to walk around blindfolded so as to give them the best opportunity to do so. Let's examine a common scenario:

Dwarf: Gee I hope there are no goblins here. I can't be bothered to actually look up from my shoes to see if there are any, though.
Goblin: *bump*
Dwarf: HOLY CRAP! I JUST RAN INTO A GOBLIN.

I think it'd be just a *little* more realistic if it was like:

Dwarf: HOLY CRAP! THAT SHRUB HAS A MACE HEAD! GOBLINS ARE TRYING TO SNEAK INTO THE BASE! THEY'RE CURRENTLY A SCANT 12 TILES FROM THE ENTRANCE!

-D.B.

Then just have your military schedualed to guard the entrance to the fort. There is this great big system set up so you can do that.

[DgnBiscuit]

Guard dogs are great if you've got enough to spare killing them wantonly for the purposes of security. That's up their with in idea space with painting your fence with the blood of baby turtles. And, while I fully endorse the idea of forcing the nasties through labyrinthine corridors to get to your fortress, ideally through hordes of nasty traps, that seems more like an anti-siege idea. And the problem with cage traps and caged animals is that you have to refill both. Since war dogs are no longer the gods of war that they used to be it takes half a dozen to kill even a moderately armored and trained invader, and I can think of better things to do with metal and wood than make the worlds largest goblin zoo.

I get that there are ways to work around the fact that there is literally no early warning (yes, literally, because even the dogs and cages have to bump into the goblins to see them), but, honestly, settlements in any period that would have had walls would have had people watching out from on top of them precisely so that invaders wouldn't sneak past them. And it's not like it'd be removing the difficulty: You'd still have to deal with them, they wouldn't just vanish.

And additionally: Can you name one scenario in which it would make sense for a group of heavily armed, semi-self-aware, evil humanoids would be able to sneak past people within whispering distance of them without arousing an alarm? For that matter, can you name a scenario where highly paranoid, highly militant, massive fortress building humanoids wouldn't bother to look out for the nasties they know are out there?

-D.B.

[Max White]

There, you gave yet another solution to your own question.

settlements in any period that would have had walls

Build a large wall, and have your military guard the only entrance, they will never get past you.

[DgnBiscuit]

Then just have your military schedualed to guard the entrance to the fort. There is this great big system set up so you can do that.

.... again. Missing the point. The point is that the military does about as good a job actually "watching" as quadriplegic does playing basketball: They don't actually detect anything invaders till they're pulling their bolts and spears out from between their ribs. The point is that it makes no sense for goblins to be able to get that close in those numbers and not have even the thickest dwarf notice them. Sure, I can set up a military parade at the front of my fortress to detect goblins. I can also determine which plants are edible in the wild by eating them in alphabetical order. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. It doesn't even mean that it makes sense. And in this case, it definitely doesn't make sense.

-D.B.

[Jake]

The "dwarves only spot Sneaking enemies when right next to them" issue is due to be fixed at some point, if that helps.

[DgnBiscuit]

There, you gave yet another solution to your own question.

Build a large wall, and have your military guard the only entrance, they will never get past you.

Again, beside the point. I can wall off my whole fortress and be completely protected. Perfect protection isn't the point. The point is falling on goblins as a way of detecting an army of them snickering in the bushes right next to you doesn't really make sense.

-D.B.