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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress Clone?  (Read 69527 times)

Kogut

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Clone?
« Reply #285 on: February 18, 2011, 06:10:28 pm »

Somebody developing DF clone with good interface will result in:
Game with good interface, without grass, eggs, world generation, combat system etc. But with good interface.
And Toady will be able to reuse the good interface. So I am happy to see DF clone supposed to have good interface.
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Re: Dwarf Fortress Clone?
« Reply #286 on: February 18, 2011, 06:11:52 pm »

Why not? I think it's rather ridiculous to claim that you own an idea in the first place. Once you share an idea, you give it to others regardless if you've patented it. Not to mention that someone probably had a near clone of your idea before you, just that they didn't bother to patent it.

In the end, all it really is is a selfish grab for money. Although that's just my view; I really do hate greed, and that's why I admire Toady. (don't pull that bullshit that greed is ok because of capitalism -- it's still fucking greed)

Please don't act like you're viewing man "from a distance" as if you think you're better than the average man. I assure you, if you invented something than you would want to patent it.
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Vertigon

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Clone?
« Reply #287 on: February 18, 2011, 09:14:43 pm »

EL? Is that Escaped Lunatic? I do not know what these forum titles imply.

You might know this by now, but EL does refer to Escaped Lunatic, which is a title given to those that have made, I believe less than ten posts? As such, they are usually the center of suspicion.
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Sowelu

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Clone?
« Reply #288 on: February 18, 2011, 09:30:45 pm »

Suspicion's not the right word, exactly, but if an EL is acting like a jerk or spamming then we know it's not just some regular we didn't recognize who's gone a little bit mental for the day.
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CoughDrop

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Clone?
« Reply #289 on: February 18, 2011, 09:59:20 pm »

Please don't act like you're viewing man "from a distance" as if you think you're better than the average man. I assure you, if you invented something than you would want to patent it.

No, I'm pretty sure I don't give two shits about hoarding money, and patenting would only cause trouble for people that would want to improve upon whatever it is I made. Is there any other reason to patent something other than for financial gain?
I mean, the only thing it REALLY does is keeps people from making money off of your "original idea", right?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 06:08:30 am by CoughDrop »
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DwarvesH

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Clone?
« Reply #290 on: February 19, 2011, 05:10:09 am »

When I said I wanted to talk about the other ideas mentioned in this thread I should have known that you would jump right to the suing bit ;).

I am no lawyer but I am pretty versed in software distribution licenses. So let me expose my point of view on this as if I were an outsider.

First, there is the code. That has clearly no connection to DF and there are laws in place to protect me from exposing my code created for the situation when some money grabbing entity tries to profit from it. You and I know that this is not the case here, but those laws are in place.

Then there is the general idea. I think that when talking about the general idea the conclusion is the following: another game in the same genre. Other verdict would be disastrous and set a very dangerous precedent for the entire open source movement. While I am not open source right now but considering it, almost all open source is about reproducing someone's closed source idea. If you enjoy using Linux for example, there is a good chance that your favorite application is a clone of a Windows or Apple product. Linux has been fearing unreasonable patent laws for years and there was a moment when you could cut the FUD (fear-uncertainty-doubt) with a kitchen knife. Some distributions make a point to only include packages that are as safe as possible form a patent/IP point of view, giving you a fairly useless operation system for the masses unless you plan to do a console based server, where Linux shines and is the best and safest bet. And some of you may argue that the difference here is that they are recreating something and giving it away for free. Make it about higher morals. But this is a legal system we are talking about and the moral issue has been solutioned already: if you distribute something protected you are eligible to face punishment if you charge money or not. Otherwise, claiming that morality allowed you to break some rules makes you judge, jury and executioner and we all know how well that works generally.

Then there is the specific content. The tiny parts, like blade weed (to much plump helmet talk already; I am sure that somewhere somehow all plump helmets have a serious case of the hiccups). No instance will accept a case based only on a few glimpses from a blog, especially when it can be proven that historically at the same moment there were claims that these were only for testing and demo purposes. Basically, it falls into the "mock-up" category. Name your favorite software package (besides DF) and imagine that you are a developer with an idea and would like that idea put in action based on the above mentioned software. To make it more specific, let us take a shooter and the idea being a new rendering mode based on ray tracing. And to mock-up this rendering engine, you hacked a commercially available shooter. The assets are still there, so is the engine, but you replaced a couple of dlls. Talked about it in a blog. Made a few demo videos. Have intention to sell a product based on the new rendering engine with the new ray tracing algorithm, but with no connection to the commercial shooter. Your idea works with any shooter and you are not dependent on the original product. You only used that to show that you can. Now, there are tons of people out there doing that to varying extent. Sue away. Sure, in some cases the specific person may have invalidated the EULA (end user license agreement) by tinkering with a product, but that won't get you that far. Take Apple for example. The legal battle is done and people rejoiced. You are now legally permitted to jailbreak your iPhone which you bought and own to allow legal software on it that Apple doesn't want there. So Apple can no longer say: "You can use only our Internet browser, no other company is allowed to create a fresh browser for our machine and you are not allowed to buy or install it.". You may loose warranty, but it is legal, i.e. you will not have any legal troubles. Of course, this varies from country to county, which leads me to my next point.

The reality. And the reality is that IP/copyright laws are by no means universal. There are countries out there, where you go to a supermarket, to the music store and every single music CD has been burned in the back office of that store on a cheap computer. The case is of low quality, scratched often and the label is printed black and white in the best case scenario and just a piece of paper from a notebook with the album and artist name misspelled with a pen in the worst case scenario. Or even cassette tapes. These shops are legal there and they pay taxes. Countries, where this is the norm and nobody cares about copyright law and even less about paying royalties. Where you have no broadband Internet to illegally download music so you buy it for dirt cheap from a shop and you are happy. And the entire musical industry with all its money has nothing that it can do about it. Nor do all major copyright international movements. Thing are progressing in those countries and laws are "catching up" to international standards slowly, but keep in mind if such a copyright law is given today, it may take a couple of decades before piracy goes from the major form of distribution and the norm that people are used to a small part of the population so the law can be considered a success. In such countries after a year or two, politicians will appear on TV, complain loudly about how much the campaign the "educate people's sensitivities" has cost them, money taken from other crucial domains, because of evil international pressure, and how piracy has gone down 3%.

Neonivek

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Clone?
« Reply #291 on: February 19, 2011, 05:39:06 am »

Quote
Speaking of litigation, the general state of how prevalent it is in the US made someone I know start putting this disclaimer in his work

Oddly enough that isn't a legal document.

Quote
You are now legally permitted to jailbreak your iPhone which you bought and own to allow legal software on it that Apple doesn't want there. So Apple can no longer say: "You can use only our Internet browser, no other company is allowed to create a fresh browser for our machine and you are not allowed to buy or install it.".


Oooh did Apple EVER find a way around that (and other companies too). Totally legal for Apple to do it too. So SURE you want to use this OTHER internet Browser? Well Who says Apple can't release a "Patch" that breaks your iPhone if your using this alternate browser?
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DwarvesH

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Clone?
« Reply #292 on: February 19, 2011, 05:51:42 am »

Oooh did Apple EVER find a way around that (and other companies too). Totally legal for Apple to do it too. So SURE you want to use this OTHER internet Browser? Well Who says Apple can't release a "Patch" that breaks your iPhone if your using this alternate browser?

Sure, they may do that. The question is how much of a jerk to do you want to be, because there is no way you can do it in secret. People will find out. Also, it is elementary that once you jailbreak something you are very careful with official updates. Like the Sony spectacle that is going on right now since they started fighting back with a lot of dick moves against the PlayStation 3 piracy. People jailbreak their console, play pirated games, go online and get banned. And they ask: "How come?". The problem is that Apple already has a reputation and even though they continue to make it worse, they are big enough that they don't mind. I myself dislike both Apple and the concept of "smart-phones", but soon I may need to buy one and if I do it will probably be from Apple.

Max White

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Clone?
« Reply #293 on: February 19, 2011, 06:14:27 am »

I dislike apples way of being 'smart', at all. It seems that when microsoft thought "How do we make things smart" they figured that should put inteliseence into a compiler and make softeware development a lot faster, therefor giving microsoft users more programs. When apple thought 'smart' they went for lots of features to show off at conventions, most of them going unused, or not even included.

eerr

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Clone?
« Reply #294 on: February 19, 2011, 07:17:39 am »

I guess he could patent some of it, but that's a bit of an ordeal all by itself.

Oh you better believe it! Patenting stuff really shouldn't be so ridiculously hard.
Patents are for protecting processes, as well as machines designed for processes, and code performing specific functions.
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Urist is dead tome

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Clone?
« Reply #295 on: February 19, 2011, 11:01:06 am »

No, I'm pretty sure I don't give two shits about hoarding money, and patenting would only cause trouble for people that would want to improve upon whatever it is I made. Is there any other reason to patent something other than for financial gain?
I mean, the only thing it REALLY does is keeps people from making money off of your "original idea", right?


No. It makes a record of the date and protects your invention from being sued. Why is financial gain bad? What if someone's family is in financial trouble and they try to patent something their father and grandfather invented? Is that greed?
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CoughDrop

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Clone?
« Reply #296 on: February 19, 2011, 12:47:24 pm »

It makes a record of the date and protects your invention from being sued.
...Because of other people being allowed to patent their inventions... That's a tragedy of the commons that won't go away unless you take current patent laws out of the equation.
Why is financial gain bad?
Ugh, I knew this would come up. First of all, I never did say financial gain is inherently bad, did I? Secondly I was making the point that financial gain through use of patents keeps altruistic benefits from an invention at the will of its "owner".
What if someone's family is in financial trouble and they try to patent something their father and grandfather invented? Is that greed?
Greed: "excessive or rapacious desire, especially for wealth or possessions." So no. However, I'd like to see what percentage of people actually use patents for sustained living vs. those who use them to further monopolize businesses (and to make money via suing).

In the end, I'm certainly no lawyer. If you can convince me that the way patents are used is flawless, then I'll proudly stand corrected. However, I will continue to scrutinize inefficiencies in hopes to bring forth better alternatives.
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Soadreqm

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Clone?
« Reply #297 on: February 19, 2011, 01:30:50 pm »

What if someone's family is in financial trouble and they try to patent something their father and grandfather invented? Is that greed?

If they're in financial trouble, how are they going to capitalize on the invention? I guess they could sell the patent. So I guess what's really going on is that a large corporation buys brilliant technology from a starving family; proceeds to make a killing. Which doesn't seem all that noble and pure to me.

Anyway, I really don't Dwarf Fortress has many things that should be patentable. Well, probably some of the underlying algorithms, but nobody's getting at those anyway, thanks to Toady One's don't-hand-the-code-over-to-everyone-who-asks-policy. The things someone plausibly could copy are game mechanics. A mechanism for controlling imaginary dwarves? :P
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Kogut

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Clone?
« Reply #298 on: February 19, 2011, 01:32:41 pm »

Algorithms are nonpatentable.
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Re: Dwarf Fortress Clone?
« Reply #299 on: February 19, 2011, 02:29:54 pm »

Greed: "excessive or rapacious desire, especially for wealth or possessions." So no. However, I'd like to see what percentage of people actually use patents for sustained living vs. those who use them to further monopolize businesses (and to make money via suing).

In the end, I'm certainly no lawyer. If you can convince me that the way patents are used is flawless, then I'll proudly stand corrected. However, I will continue to scrutinize inefficiencies in hopes to bring forth better alternatives.


I'm not arguing patent law is flawless, I'm arguing that you've created a straw man.
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