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[Rose]

but what were you thinking re: those mushrooms?

Probably the same thing as everybody who copied halflings and elves from The lord of the Rings.

[Sowelu]

but what were you thinking re: those mushrooms?

Probably the same thing as everybody who copied halflings and elves from The lord of the Rings.

That's not copying halflings and elves, that's copying lembas wafers with the exact same name.  It's a very specific feature of a very specific world.

[DwarvesH]

As I said in my post:

As for plump helmets, I have formed quite a strong bond with these purple mushrooms from playing DF. I would like to keep them as a tribute or homage to DF, even if I end up changing everything else.

I love plump helmets. Maybe one day people will say: "Hey, do you know that other game in the same genre as DF but totally different. It has all new features. Except those damn plump helmets! And they are still purple!!!!"

[CoughDrop]

Yeah, I hated seeing this thread with people bashing something they didn't know too much about... Oh well.

Good luck with your project, DwarvesH. 

[MarcAFK]

Actually i should apologise for jumping to a negative conclusion due to how freakishly similar your creation is compared to DF.
I had not read through your blog before i made those comments, but after doing so it appears that you are in fact coding from scratch.

[G-Flex]

As I said in my post:

As for plump helmets, I have formed quite a strong bond with these purple mushrooms from playing DF. I would like to keep them as a tribute or homage to DF, even if I end up changing everything else.

I love plump helmets. Maybe one day people will say: "Hey, do you know that other game in the same genre as DF but totally different. It has all new features. Except those damn plump helmets! And they are still purple!!!!"

I don't know why you're defending the inclusion of plump helmets specifically instead of, you know, all the other plants and such as well? Granted, you went into that elsewhere, and if the DF content is a placeholder (at least the content that can be easily replaced), then hey, not much of a problem there.

I think that DF is C and DwarvesH is C++.

I know this isn't terribly relevant, but just so you know, DF is C++ (although likely written in a style much different from your own).

[Andir]

I don't know why you're defending the inclusion of plump helmets specifically instead of, you know, all the other plants and such as well?

Maybe you missed the part where he said he used content from the Wiki to get things started?  (Maybe you didn't read, which seems to be the common denominator here: Having people judge a game based on videos without learning more...)

[DwarvesH]

I don't know why you're defending the inclusion of plump helmets specifically instead of, you know, all the other plants and such as well?

Maybe you missed the part where he said he used content from the Wiki to get things started?  (Maybe you didn't read, which seems to be the common denominator here: Having people judge a game based on videos without learning more...)

I think he actually means why I put special emphasis on plump helmets above everything else. Why I don't care about DF content except for plump helmets. Well, they are probably the key of early success for a lot of new players.

But yes, I do get the impression that a lot of people do not read anything and just give opinions. I am not talking about this forum, but the way  things work in general on the Internet.

[Andir]

I think he actually means why I put special emphasis on plump helmets above everything else. Why I don't care about DF content except for plump helmets.

If that's the case, all one has to do is read back a few pages and see that they were the most prevalent example given as "proof" that you copied DF.

It's like someone running into the room screaming "That guy is using cough syrup in his cake recipe!" then asking why everyone keeps talking about cough syrup.

IE:

But copying everything, down to the plump helmets?

The plump helmet belongs to toady, and is not public domain.

I find it really hard to believe he was lazy enough to just call his mushrooms "Plump Helmets", but motivated enough to write his raws.

I did not see much talk about other plants except in the general context.

[Knight of Fools]

Sorry if I made my post sound too negative.  I was mostly trying to point at the fact that YouTube is a more widely viewed medium than any blog, so it would have been a fair idea to acknowledge DF there in anticipation of the people who won't read your blog.  I understand the need to test your program with a variety of objects, but it did seem a little unfair that the people who only viewed your video and didn't bother to read your blog should think that the game, as it is right now, doesn't contain 100% self-inspired content.  Noting that DF was a huge inspiration, or at least a big source, when using a new medium from the get-go, even if it seems redundant and annoying, could have saved a lot of grief and misunderstanding - You seem to know how the internet works, so it's best to avoid problems before they start.  With so little time in a day, you can hardly blame people for not reading your blog.

That was my major beef.  Having created new settings in fiction, I understand that it's impossible to do something that doesn't draw inspiration from something else, so I have no problem with the game you're making in and of itself.  Just tread a little more cautiously, next time - Sometimes people look for any reason to get an argument started and ignore any number of unlikely outcomes.

I think the biggest concern here was a mix of your ambiguous, "I might make money off of this" that certain people pulled off your blog with too little mention that DwarvesH was going to be completely different, or at least different enough, from DF.

Thanks for coming here and clarifying, though.  It's good to see you aren't afraid to take a little heat.

...And why in the world did you capitalize the "H" in Dwarvesh?  That bugs the heck out of me.

[nenjin]

I was wondering when the GC was going to find their way here.

Politics

It's pretty clear you're not as informed on DF as I think we all assumed. Let's just say you're not the first person who has tried to do this. While your project ideas may be your own, your approach is not. You're not the first person that has creavitely borrowed parts of Toady's design while doing their own work. Plump helmets are just an example, you've also got his skills format, the embark screen, and other features that seem directly cooked from what you found in DF and liked.

Which I have no problem with. And you're right, no one owns the genre or even purple mushrooms. But you've correctly identified the problem; and you basically walked straight into it. Some people aren't going to care; they're only going to care if someone can provide them more free entertainment. But don't be surprised at the hostility you can get, because you basically launched yourself with no real grasp of how this looks to parts of the DF  community.

Like, have you even talked with Toady? You don't have to, no one's making you. But that would be the professional thing to do. Just a friendly "Hey, love your work, doing my own thing, ect...." To find out how he actually feels about what you're doing. The fact this thread was a mystery to you means you probably didn't.

I'm glad you came here though, to show you're more than just a cheerful frontpage. I hope in reading all this, you get that nothing is so simple as "just taking what I need", especially from a game that has been in development for almost a decade, even if it's just ideas with the same names and the same presentation.

And seriously. Saying that content is a later stage project, and so you might as well just plug in other people's content so you have something to show, doesn't really endear me at least to your project. Someone's else content is still someone else's content, if you're using it to fill out your game instead of doing it as an homage. Nothing looks like an homeage in your game right now, it looks like you need that content to round everything out.

I think you could have presented yourself much the same way, and gotten a much better reaction, if you'd taken the time to make some original, tangible content instead of using short cuts.

[Andir]

Like, have you even talked with Toady? You don't have to, no one's making you. But that would be the professional thing to do.

I'm sure all the fan art on the internet made a concerted effort to contact the original author and ask permission. :rolleyes:

You act as if Toady is some mystical being with ownership of a genre.  Who would I contact if I wanted to make a rock song to make sure it was okay?  Is there a contact I must get approval from for making a 4X game?

[nenjin]

Depends on how much you want to directly sample, if you want to re-use names and characters they've created, yeah, I think you would. It happens all the time on game forums. I think if someone really likes the product they're emulating, they should always contact the original creators.

[squeakyReaper]

First off, I applaud you for coming on to here.  While you said you were directed, it takes a lot of courage to go into the belly of the beast to poke at the contents within.  That got you a huge boon in the community, I'm willing to wager, and will make an enormous difference in our dispositions to you.

Second, I can understand the placeholders.  Of course you're going to change it later.  It just...  seems a bit strange to to use these particular placeholders.  While it gives flavor to the world, whereas saying "Mushroom Plant" might not be as good as "Plump Helmet", it still bothers me.  It's like making a game about an Italian Plumber named Mario who uses Fire Flowers and jumps on Goombas.  It's not Super Mario Bros, and could even be a strategy game, but the use of names is just very uncanny.

Third, good job on the genre!  I do agree, it's very under-represented.  Goblin Camp has it's own nice niche (I hope to see it develop!), Dwarf Fortress has a strong hold where it's at, and DwarvesH could easily go off on its own route.  Adding more to a genre should never be bashed.  Just make sure to find your differences later on.  I know you're planning to, I know, and adding content to an Engine just means you'll have to completely change it later, but I must agree the similarities are incredibly visible.  We do notice the differences however.  Notice how much people pointed out the mouse support, and carving statues straight into rock!  That's an incredible feature!  Keep at that.

And fourth, the "source code" thing is a joke.  At least I hope it was.  It'd be great trolling on part of other members, but reallllllly.  The coding is very different here.  Your biomes are less sophisticated, created on the spot for specific areas, the control scheme is very different, your dwarves are managed in another way, time is not a constant (other than FPS, haha), and nobody has seen Toady's code in quite a while AFAIK (though that Truetype Font person might of).

[Askot Bokbondeler]

i'm the guy who invited dwarvesh to the discussion, and it worked out better than i expected. i'm really glad that you guys sorta welcomed him and are being pretty reasonable instead of throwing shit all around.

dwarvesh is participating in the discussion, so there really is no longer the need for me to serve as a defense attorney, but i'll comment anyway.

And seriously. Saying that content is a later stage project, and so you might as well just plug in other people's content so you have something to show, doesn't really endear me at least to your project. Someone's else content is still someone else's content, if you're using it to fill out your game instead of doing it as an homage. Nothing looks like an homeage in your game right now, it looks like you need that content to round everything out.

I think you could have presented yourself much the same way, and gotten a much better reaction, if you'd taken the time to make some original, tangible content instead of using short cuts.

i disagree here, i think that using content from dwarf fortress is in good faith. he is trying to build an engine capable of running a game\games akin to dwarf fortress, to detach itself from it's source of inspiration would be dishonest, so i see the use of df material in the early iterations of the engine is a way to tribute and credit df itself.

i'm betting when dwarvesh's project is released, df will have moved a few steps toward procedurally generated content, and will no longer have any stock plants, making dwarvesh's the only game featuring plump helmets(if he ends up including them as a reference)