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[nenjin]

Well, that will all come down to what's actually in the code.

Honestly, I would see this as much more benign if he didn't throw out that "I may choose to make money off this one day. Or not." statement. THAT'S a loaded statement, given how much seems to becoming directly from DF.

[Max White]

He's not trying to steal the game for himself, he's seeing if he can make the game by himself.

That is reverse engineering. He has seen DF, now is trying to figure out the code behind it. Thats reverse engineering. Breaking into things and trying to decompile the code so you can rip parts out and use them for yourself, is... Hacking? Well not realy, but close.

Honestly, I would see this as much more benign if he didn't throw out that "I may choose to make money off this one day. Or not." statement. THAT'S a loaded statement, given how much seems to becoming directly from DF.

Things are never go well once money get's involved and half your game belongs to somebody else.

[Realmfighter]

He's looking at DF going "Hmm, I wonder how that works....." and he's trying to figure it out.

[Max White]

He's looking at DF going "Hmm, I wonder how that works....." and he's trying to figure it out.

Yes, reverse engineering.

[nenjin]

To be fair, MOST game designers to do that with games they like. That's how they all get started.

It's a matter of what he does after that. Does he then decide that Toady basically has some stuff perfect and there's no point trying to do it differently? Does he then build a GUI around that, get permission to get a visualizer to integrate into it, and then make Youtube videos and a grand blogspot for his unveiling?

To repeat: everyone reverse engineers to gain an understanding of other's work. It's whether or not they then build their own system, or transplant someone else's work because it's quicker, they can't replicate it or they can't improve it.

Regardless, all three of those are stealing. Even if you plan to use someone else's overall design, ethically, you build it from scratch and use someone else's work as a reference to make your's work. That's creative integrity that operates in the real world.

People that just want to succeed and/or make money find it's easier to rip. It took 10 years to get DF where it is now. They want to benefit of a game world they technically control without the blood, sweat and brain power it took to get there.

[Max White]

Like I said, it needs to stand on it's own two feet. I'm finewith it if the maker has all these cool ideas they thought would be interesting in DF, so instead of hoping he set off to make he's own game.

[Realmfighter]

He's Reverse Engineering and then putting it into to code (And onto Youtube, for other people to recognize)to prove that he's right.

Like I said, it needs to stand on it's own two feet. I'm finewith it if the maker has all these cool ideas they thought would be interesting in DF, so instead of hoping he set off to make he's own game.

Its been in development for Five months. If he's going to add unique things, he has plenty of time.


Oh, and on the point you made that he might charge money for it the future and profit off Toady's ideas?

On important aspect is that this is a personal project. I am coding for myself right now, with no intention to sell anything or release the project under any form. For now. Maybe later I値l try something. Maybe I値l release it as freeware. Maybe I値l charge huge amounts of money and never makes one single dime from it. Maybe I値l release the source code and make it open source. But right now, I値l be only developing once in a while and post on this blog about my progress.

Sounds pretty Non-Committal/Tongue in Cheek to me.

[nenjin]

If he's willing to be transparent about his code and make it public, then I'm cool with it to the degree he deconstructs DF then rebuilds it into his own thing.

If he just deconstructs DF into chunks of work that can be easily used by him....not so much. I'm ok with DF templating to begin with. It just has to move beyond that.

Either way, if he's documenting it there will be proof one way or another, besides the actual game files.

I would really like to believe there's someone out there that wants to break DF down for noble, fun reasons, and not just to capitalize on Toady's work, make their name as a game creator or eventually whore it out for dollars. Unfortunately, in this guy's case, he's not doing much to allay my concerns. He's not presenting it as a Dwarf Fortress Science Project. Were this not the indie scene, he would already have a lawsuit pending.

[Eagleon]

Regardless of how identical the setting is, I have to say, I really do like his idea of being able to carve out furniture and such in-place instead of the multi-step process DF has now. It makes sense to be able to do both, actually - being able to move furniture is a definite plus, but how awesome would it be to make a throne out of native gold with natural quartz straddling it seamlessly?

In regards to theft - I'm warily optimistic that he isn't as batshit retarded as Impaler, in that he'll realize that copying every feature, object, plant, and creature from DF is bound to make pretty much everyone hate him (including many non-dfers) in the long run, and that it'll only result in an easily won lawsuit from Toady. And to me, whether or not he can make something that can compete with DF is irrelevant, as DF can't compete with DF - it's always growing, and it's much more than a fortress simulation. To me this looks like a pretest - something that uses some placeholder terminology and features from the game that inspired it in order to test the technology, interface, and appeal of the game. And dwarves certainly aren't copyright Toady One, so the main theme of his game isn't exactly completely stolen.

[nenjin]

But the skill sets, the item lists, the biome/savagery abstraction, probably the animal lists....

in that he'll realize that copying every feature, object, plant, and creature from DF is bound to make pretty much everyone hate him (including many non-dfers) in the long run, and that it'll only result in an easily won lawsuit from Toady.

Well that's really the question, isn't it? In my mind, showing something that uses as much of DF as his current showing does, just for the sake of putting yourself out there, isn't a good idea. It's not exactly professional, even in the indie world. (In the MOD world that's completely acceptable.)

Doing that and then mentioning your future, purposeful ambiguous financial motives at the same time is a terrible idea.

[Eagleon]

Didn't say it wasn't. I'm optimistic that he'll realize how it looks, though.

[Max White]

Well that's really the question, isn't it? In my mind, showing something that uses as much of DF as his current showing does, just for the sake of putting yourself out there, isn't a good idea. It's not exactly professional, even in the indie world. (In the MOD world that's completely acceptable.)

Doing that and then mentioning your future, purposeful ambiguous financial motives at the same time is a terrible idea.

As a general rule, there are three types of games that do well in indie circles.
1) Games that have some cool new concept that they built around. They thought of new new machenic and it kicks ass and had to make a game about it. See fez for details.
2) Games with awesome story line. Every indie kid and he's dog has some cave story take off they want to make, and some people manage to write a good story.
3) Games that show big business how to do it. Games that are so awesome and made on such a small budget that put mainstream games to shame.

DF falls into the number 3 catagory. Two people built one of, if not the most detailed game on earth. What catagory does a clone go into? I don't see how the indie world would like it that much...

[G-Flex]

3) Games that show big business how to do it.

As much of a fan of DF I am, I don't really think this fits. DF has spent several years with relatively slow development and isn't anywhere near finished; no big business would do anything remotely in that way. That's the kind of thing that only really works as a labor of love.

[nenjin]

3) Games that show big business how to do it.

As much of a fan of DF I am, I don't really think this fits. DF has spent several years with relatively slow development and isn't anywhere near finished; no big business would do anything remotely in that way. That's the kind of thing that only really works as a labor of love.

I actually agree with G-Flex, I think business model expectations of development is exactly the kind of thing that would kill Toady's ability to do what he does. He'd probably still be able to create stuff....but would we have such detailed bees? I think not.

Think of the bees, man!

[Max White]

3) Games that show big business how to do it.

As much of a fan of DF I am, I don't really think this fits. DF has spent several years with relatively slow development and isn't anywhere near finished; no big business would do anything remotely in that way. That's the kind of thing that only really works as a labor of love.

Incorrectly implying that work load is scales up
If 2 people can do it in 7 years, then 14 people could do it in one year!

Ok, for real though, a larger team could do it in less time, and two or three years isn't very long game wise. As long as the team was small enough that one person had compleate creative controll, then games like DF are more then possible.