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[GlyphGryph]

You're basically describing Fatah before Israel screwed them over. Fatah made a serious effort to negotiate with Israel, and is still in control of the West Bank, but that's... also the area where Israel continues to pull the most bullshit, despite Fatah's efforts in trying to keep the local militants subdued. Essentially, Israel is constantly undermining them by demonstrating that the only thing that will keep Israel settlements and kidnapping operations and home demolitions out is the threat of violence. (admittedly, they still do demolitions in response, but those are of a very different type thank bulldozing "suspect" homes so Israeli's can build their instead)

So Fatah ended up going to the UN and forming a unity government with Hamas instead, since they came to the realization it was impossible for them to deal with Israel in good faith.

I imagine any other third party that stepped in would have exactly the same problem - Israel isn't willing to make any concessions that would them to actually stabilize the region, and would in fact probably undercut them at every turn, since indiscriminate kidnapping, home destruction, and settler expansion are all things that will make the locals very, very unhappy with you unless you're acting to stop them.

[burningpet]

*Actually, is there anyone in the local area that Israel hasn't managed to piss off? I've forgotten at this point.

Israelis tend to have that annoying trait of being jewish. so yeah, there is no one israel hasn't managed to piss off in the local area, primarily thanks to that quality.

[GavJ]

Why would israel want, need or accept such a system or even any kind of UN intervention on its own state when it has one of the most highly developed states in the world? do you seriously suggest to punish israelis for the palestines inability to govern themselves properly?

Want:  I don't care if they want it.
Need:  They don't need it in and of themselves out of context -- It's the system that needs it if peace is to reign. The point of enforcing rule of law for each group is primarily to protect the other group, not themselves. They can already presumably handle internal law. It's external law and order that both have had their chance and failed to show an ability to control. Enforcing an external system on both protects primarily each from the other. Not themselves.
Accept: I wasn't planning on requiring polite acceptance. If either/both groups are reasonable enough to politely abide by world peace enforcement, then all the better. But if not, they can be forced to abide.

do you seriously suggest to punish israelis for the palestines inability to govern themselves properly?

No, it's not punishment for anybody, because it's not punishment. It's enforced arbitration, and (in some form or another, mine is just one random example of a possible system) it's better for everybody and clearly necessary now to prevent an endless cycle or genocide one way or the other. Stepping in between the escalation saves lives for all involved, including Israeli lives.

[burningpet]

You're basically describing Fatah before Israel screwed them over. Fatah made a serious effort to negotiate with Israel...

Seeing how Fatah managed to get itself shot out of gaza, i'd say israel didn't have any reason to simply give them free reign to fuck another region. not to mention that little annoying thing called Fatah official charter where they call to destroy israel which they refused to remove.

[10ebbor10]

You're basically describing Fatah before Israel screwed them over. Fatah made a serious effort to negotiate with Israel...

Seeing how Fatah managed to get itself shot out of gaza, i'd say israel didn't have any reason to simply give them free reign to fuck another region. not to mention that little annoying thing called Fatah official charter where they call to destroy israel which they refused to remove.

Seeing as Israel still continues it's policy of expanding settlements in the west bank, it's not exagerated to say that israel seeks the de facto annihilation of the palestinian state.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

@Gravj

I don't think that 'tithing' system would work so well- it was in an era where one family couldn't overpower ten, (modern firearms), and would require a massive enforcement effort to avoid just not working- everyone ignoring it.
So it'd necessitate a near-occupation anyway, and let's not forget the international scandal of prosecuting thousands upon thousands of 'not-exactly-guilty' palestinians for not dragging their neighbors into court at gunpoint.

[GavJ]

everyone ignoring it

Perhaps I was unclear - there are still government law enforcers. Who will still go attempt to find people at their known addresses and locations and do whatever investigation they can afford. It's not 100% left up to the locals.

So completely ignoring it simply means that the government will try to recover the accused themselves, but if they fail, they're eventually going to go arrest all of the rest of you and go to trial anyway. Ignoring doesn't make it go away.

If you want to make sure you aren't arrested or convicted, you have to actively do stuff:
1) Act preventatively in your community group to convince others to be lawful.
2) If something happens, making efforts to find the accused.
3) Alternatively, going into hiding. Which is a form of resistanc that could happen, but is NOT "just ignoring it." However, this should be rare. As long as trials are done fairly (critical!), not many people would have a good reason to give up their home and jobs and go on the run purely to avoid bringing a neighbor to a fair trial to account for accusations. And people going into hiding on a massive scale isn't even physically possible anyway.

let's not forget the international scandal of prosecuting thousands upon thousands of 'not-exactly-guilty' palestinians for not dragging their neighbors into court at gunpoint.

Just like in medieval Europe where it was used earlier, the letter of the law is strict. The enforcement of the law is softer.
The English didn't by any means go around imprisoning half their population or anything. In large part this was because it was effective at prevention. But also in large part, because the legal system had the latitude to pardon people if they could show good evidence that they really made a strong effort to create a preventative culture and to find the accused, etc. And they used that latitude often.

Just like when you go look up things like I dunno, 18th century British law, it looks like absolute dystopian hell where everybody gets murdered for everything "Cut a piece of somebody's clothing? CAPITAL OFFENSE!" etc. etc. Yet very very few people were executed compared to those actually convicted of capital offenses. The law was just like that to allow such sentences when deemed necessary, not to require them every time.

Usually, it was better for the nation and the community and everybody to issue a lighter sentence that would motivate better behavior, but not remove a valuable member of the workforce and population. Even truly despicable people were often spared and sent off to colonies instead, because it was better for the nation to get the fruits of their labor still and leave them alive than to just execute willy nilly.

It's a very judicially-oriented system, basically. Which is perfect here, because the judiciary isn't the most expensive or difficult part, and the judiciary is within U.N. nations' expertise. It's the boots on the ground rounding people up and the boots on the ground community activism and prevention that are the most difficult and expensive things, and it exports those most difficult duties onto the population.

[Frumple]

Israelis tend to have that annoying trait of being jewish. so yeah, there is no one israel hasn't managed to piss off in the local area, primarily thanks to that quality.

Huh. So what you're saying is that local/internal propaganda is blaming racism instead of israeli action for geopolitical issues? Man, I know that line. "They hate us because of our freedom," indeed. Good ol' mushroom treatment, generally.

Seriously though, does Israel really have no one in the general area they haven't screwed over so hard that said party wouldn't be willing to work as an intermediary of some sort? Not a one? Intermediary doesn't even have to really like Israel -- being willing to shoot Israelis that cross the border to screw with Palestinian land would be as much of a plus as being able to keep Hamas and company from doing the reverse.

[Leafsnail]

Seeing as Israel still continues it's policy of expanding settlements in the west bank, it's not exagerated to say that israel seeks the de facto annihilation of the palestinian state.

Ah, but never forget that words speak louder than actions.  Israel says it is committed to a fair peace agreement, therefore it is.  The IDF says that it does not commit war crimes, therefore it doesn't.  Any evidence that contradict these notions should be shouted down by repeating the previous two sentences.

[GlyphGryph]

    Yesterday, on the [Jerusalem] light rail,

    A soldier takes a seat next to me and a few moments afterward a woman of about fifty sits next to him.
    As soon as she notes the uniform he’s wearing she starts shouting: ‘Hammer into them, kill the children, kill them all, erase Gaza, what use do these children have? What use is a gentile child? They need to be killed without hesitation, etc, etc’

    The soldier sat their quietly and ignored her. But I lost it, I couldn’t contain myself. ‘A child is a child’ I told her ‘That child that you want to see murdered and spill his blood is just a poor child who didn’t do nothing to anyone, he’s a prisoner under siege living in a city under bombardment, he could have been your child, he has a life he has a soul’

    ‘disgusting’ she replies ‘that’s a child? It’s a gentile! A putrid gentile! You dare compare jews to gentiles? You dare you say they are the same?’

    And this is where another woman steps in, more “intelligent”, more moderate, claims to be educated on the subject: ‘Excuse me, but you’re a religious person! Our scripture says “You who are called men” not “they who are called men”, gentiles are beasts. It’s a disgrace to talk the way you do, as soon as they can be killed they should be killed’

    And slowly a wild discourse starts brewing in the cabin, people begin circling us and gaze at me angrily I hear one who says: ‘here’s another kid who got brain washed by the leftists’

    And I’m trying to get in a word or two: “Pleasant is a man who was born in the image of god, for it is said that all men were made in the image of God…” (for only scripture gets to this people).

    I try to explain myself ‘If you had said that tactically, while waging a defensive war, there was no refrain from occasionally harming innocents I would have said nothing, the disgrace is that you’re saying that innocent gentiles ought to be murdered due to the mortal sin of being born out of a gentile womb, it’s abhorrent’ and she responds ‘Yes, yes, the gentiles are the problem, G-d regrets creatings them…’

    And yet another “scholar” says ‘Every such child is a potential terrorist’, I make the grave error of responding: ‘but that’s what Pharaoh said about the Israelites “Come, we must deal shrewdly with them or they will become even more numerous and, if war breaks out, will join our enemies”, can you imagine where things would go afterwards? What magnitude of malevolence?’. I made the grave error of comparing the Jews to Pharaoh.

    All around me voices say things such as “stinking leftist, anti-Semite, go to hell, how dare you compare Jews to gentiles”.

    I finally reached my destination and got off of the train as people were still shouting things at me.

    So what have we got left? Nazi rhetoric, somewhat polished on account of its ‘jewishness’. “In this case it is completely justified” some Rabbi once said when he was accused of having Nazi-like rhetoric.

(Translation may be off, here, translated by someone I know who speaks the language but... not perfectly, by any means)

Edit:
Welp.
https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=48kmarch&s=hash
Massive protests. Reports of Israel using live ammunition. Several confirmed dead.



Edit 2:

Ambulances continued to bring wounded Palestinians from Qalandiyah checkpoint to the Ramallah Government Hospital until 1 A.M. Friday, about three-and-a-half hours after the demonstrations began.

Hospital wards were filled with young people, including girls, wounded in the legs and waist from IDF gunfire.

The operating room was filled to capacity, and treatment for minor injuries was postponed in favor of those more seriously injured.

Since there were not enough beds in the hospital, some of the lightly wounded were asked to leave for private hospitals, and were carried out by their friends.

People gathered at the hospital expressed concern that the number of fatalities would rise over the course of the night.

"These are scenes out of the first intifada," said participants of that particular uprising who came to the hospital when they heard their sons and daughters were wounded by IDF gunfire.

One of the wounded told Haaretz that the soldiers set up behind the checkpoint wall, made up of concrete slabs, and began shooting at youths throwing stones.

"I was going to throw a stone at the wall and my friends shouted to me, 'Sniper!'," he said. "At that moment, I felt a bullet in my shin."

"I called him and he did not answer. When I called again, some who doesn't know him answered," his mother added from the hospital. "He told me that my son was injured and taken straight to the hospital."

When she arrived, she said she immediately began to clean the floor, which was filled with blood.

[Wolfhunter107]

    Yesterday, on the [Jerusalem] light rail,

    A soldier takes a seat next to me and a few moments afterward a woman of about fifty sits next to him.
    As soon as she notes the uniform he’s wearing she starts shouting: ‘Hammer into them, kill the children, kill them all, erase Gaza, what use do these children have? What use is a gentile child? They need to be killed without hesitation, etc, etc’

    The soldier sat their quietly and ignored her. But I lost it, I couldn’t contain myself. ‘A child is a child’ I told her ‘That child that you want to see murdered and spill his blood is just a poor child who didn’t do nothing to anyone, he’s a prisoner under siege living in a city under bombardment, he could have been your child, he has a life he has a soul’

    ‘disgusting’ she replies ‘that’s a child? It’s a gentile! A putrid gentile! You dare compare jews to gentiles? You dare you say they are the same?’

    And this is where another woman steps in, more “intelligent”, more moderate, claims to be educated on the subject: ‘Excuse me, but you’re a religious person! Our scripture says “You who are called men” not “they who are called men”, gentiles are beasts. It’s a disgrace to talk the way you do, as soon as they can be killed they should be killed’

    And slowly a wild discourse starts brewing in the cabin, people begin circling us and gaze at me angrily I hear one who says: ‘here’s another kid who got brain washed by the leftists’

    And I’m trying to get in a word or two: “Pleasant is a man who was born in the image of god, for it is said that all men were made in the image of God…” (for only scripture gets to this people).

    I try to explain myself ‘If you had said that tactically, while waging a defensive war, there was no refrain from occasionally harming innocents I would have said nothing, the disgrace is that you’re saying that innocent gentiles ought to be murdered due to the mortal sin of being born out of a gentile womb, it’s abhorrent’ and she responds ‘Yes, yes, the gentiles are the problem, G-d regrets creatings them…’

    And yet another “scholar” says ‘Every such child is a potential terrorist’, I make the grave error of responding: ‘but that’s what Pharaoh said about the Israelites “Come, we must deal shrewdly with them or they will become even more numerous and, if war breaks out, will join our enemies”, can you imagine where things would go afterwards? What magnitude of malevolence?’. I made the grave error of comparing the Jews to Pharaoh.

    All around me voices say things such as “stinking leftist, anti-Semite, go to hell, how dare you compare Jews to gentiles”.

    I finally reached my destination and got off of the train as people were still shouting things at me.

    So what have we got left? Nazi rhetoric, somewhat polished on account of its ‘jewishness’. “In this case it is completely justified” some Rabbi once said when he was accused of having Nazi-like rhetoric.

(Translation may be off, here, translated by someone I know who speaks the language but... not perfectly, by any means)

Edit:
Welp.
https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=48kmarch&s=hash
Massive protests. Reports of Israel using live ammunition. Several confirmed dead.



Edit 2:

Ambulances continued to bring wounded Palestinians from Qalandiyah checkpoint to the Ramallah Government Hospital until 1 A.M. Friday, about three-and-a-half hours after the demonstrations began.

Hospital wards were filled with young people, including girls, wounded in the legs and waist from IDF gunfire.

The operating room was filled to capacity, and treatment for minor injuries was postponed in favor of those more seriously injured.

Since there were not enough beds in the hospital, some of the lightly wounded were asked to leave for private hospitals, and were carried out by their friends.

People gathered at the hospital expressed concern that the number of fatalities would rise over the course of the night.

"These are scenes out of the first intifada," said participants of that particular uprising who came to the hospital when they heard their sons and daughters were wounded by IDF gunfire.

One of the wounded told Haaretz that the soldiers set up behind the checkpoint wall, made up of concrete slabs, and began shooting at youths throwing stones.

"I was going to throw a stone at the wall and my friends shouted to me, 'Sniper!'," he said. "At that moment, I felt a bullet in my shin."

"I called him and he did not answer. When I called again, some who doesn't know him answered," his mother added from the hospital. "He told me that my son was injured and taken straight to the hospital."

When she arrived, she said she immediately began to clean the floor, which was filled with blood.

WHY THE FUCK ARE WE NOT DOING ANYTHING ABOUT THIS!???!!!!???!?!?!!
I need to break something. Now.

[GlyphGryph]

Because there's nothing we can really do. I was going to write my congressperson, but then... well, then they held that vote, and it was unanimous, unlimited, total support for Israel forever more-or-less. :/

So I do what little I can and try to share the information I come across on twitter and in the news and hope to change people's minds, and maybe if enough people care pressure can be applied to make things better but lets be honest, probably not. :/

[Descan]

Welp, there goes the Third Intifada.

[GavJ]

Math update, by the way: I believe the current count of Israeli soldiers dead from this invasion is 25.

So in order to stop attacks that killed 2 people, they launched an offensive that killed 25 more of themselves?  Even  completely ignoring any arguments about "disproportionate responses" or Palestinian casualties or anything like that, this seems dumb to me even purely from the perspective of Israeli lives.

The "cure" is at least 12.5x worse than the disease so far no matter how partisan you are...  PLUS however much worse it is due to Palestinian deaths.

[Wolfhunter107]

[Rant]
I am embarrassed. I am ashamed. I am literally on the verge of shaking in rage. Why? BECAUSE THE US, THE COUNTRY THAT HAS FOR SO LONG STOOD FOR FREEDOM AND LIBERTY, HAS STOOPED TO THIS LEVEL! Why aren't we doing something? Hurr durr they're Muslims so they all are terrorists and Israel can do no wrong because they're Israel and anybody who says otherwise is a Nazi. DAMN YOU ISRAEL! DAMN YOU GOVERNMENT! DAMN YOU REAGAN! DAMN YOU ALL!!
 [/rant]

Edit: I'm now looking at pictures of kittens. Very calming.