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[Darvi]

He didn't claim that they wanted to do that. He said that it's what they're actually doing.

[Detonate]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbgt2FhggOQ

Yep. no mention of a jihad against israel for over a decade

he also says that half the palestines are actually egyptians and the other half are saudis and other arabs. so, who's land have we stolen?

the people who lived here still live here. the arabs that ran away after trying to kill every israeli, are fewer in numbers than the jewish that were forced to leave their homes and riches in arab countries.

No, i mean sweeping consensus by polls.

"The people who lived here" is only referring to the 200,000 (and their descendents) or so out of 900,000 Palestinians within modern Israel that stayed, I guess. But you know, those people in 1948 obviously didn't flee because they were forced out by the IDF and their occupations, or because of the massacres the IDF comitted. Maybe the ones forced out of their homes after 1948 too? Either way, they all obviously fled because they tried to kill Israelis and fled.

[GavJ]

if you had conducted a poll of "would you want to kill palestines?" (not hamas terrorists), i'd bet it would be a sweeping No. while in gaza, that  might be a yes (nurtured by hamas, regardless of israel)

Even for sake of argument, we assume this is the case, so what?

I don't honestly give a damn if they WANT to or not. I care, as Darvi pointed out, that they're DOING it.

Dead innocents are dead innocents. They're not any less dead if you killed them with good or bad intentions (not that I even agree that they WERE good intentions by anybody involved. Again, this is for sake of argument). And the number of dead Palestinian innocents is hugely disproportionate to the number of dead Israeli innocents. Especially considering the much smaller population they have to spare, this is, simply factually, closer to Israel "driving them into the sea" than the other way around, by far. When you add in displacement not just death, that phrase becomes even more lopsidedly opposite of what you're suggesting.

Actions speak louder than words.

[XXSockXX]

he also says that half the palestines are actually egyptians and the other half are saudis and other arabs. so, who's land have we stolen?

Sounds like he is trying to ask for more solidarity from Egypt and the Saudis, which Hamas might not get this time. This article (in German, sorry) describes how the regimes in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the Emirates are more worried about the Muslim Brotherhood (including Hamas), other islamists and Iran than about Israel, so they are quite silent on the current offensive compared to earlier ones. (Not for noble reasons I guess, they just don't want to go down the Syria/Iraq route themselves).
Unfortunately the recent regime change means that Egypt can no longer function as a reliable mediator. It also explains why most big protests against Israel are now in Europe and Turkey, not in the Arab world as it used to be.

[burningpet]

Most of them actually did simply flee to get away from the battles with the hopes of returning after the arabs manage to kill all israelis. the number of jewish that were forced to leave their homes is double than that. i don't see us claiming iraqi and iranian oil fields. this was a war. if they had won, we would have been massacred.

if you had conducted a poll of "would you want to kill palestines?" (not hamas terrorists), i'd bet it would be a sweeping No. while in gaza, that  might be a yes (nurtured by hamas, regardless of israel)

Even for sake of argument, we assume this is the case, so what?

I don't honestly give a damn if they WANT to or not. I care, as Darvi pointed out, that they're DOING it.

Dead innocents are dead innocents. They're not any less dead if you killed them with good or bad intentions (not that I even agree that they WERE good intentions by anybody involved. Again, this is for sake of argument). And the number of dead Palestinian innocents is hugely disproportionate to the number of dead Israeli innocents. Especially considering the much smaller population they have to spare, this is, simply factually, closer to Israel "driving them into the sea" than the other way around, by far. When you add in displacement not just death, that phrase becomes even more lopsidedly opposite of what you're suggesting.

Actions speak louder than words.

Why are you not counting israelis displacements?

And yes, intentions are everything, because intentions specifically say loudly, that if israel could have, it would have spared those civilians. the problem is they couldn't do so because israel NEED to remove the terrorist threat. as i said, the fact hamas is bad at killing civilians does not let them be considered the moral ones, nor does it reduce the justification for israel to remove the real, imminent threat. and since no israeli soldier have ever used an israeli civilian as a shield, while every hamas operative does or did that, then the lives of those civilians are on the hands of Hamas. the sooner the world begin to realize that, the sooner their lives could be improved.

[Darvi]

And yes, intentions are everything, because intentions specifically say loudly, that if israel could have, it would have spared those civilians.

So how do you know their intentions? Can you read minds? Or is it what they tell you. If the latter, why are you inclined to believe them?

[Detonate]

he also says that half the palestines are actually egyptians and the other half are saudis and other arabs. so, who's land have we stolen?

Sounds like he is trying to ask for more solidarity from Egypt and the Saudis, which Hamas might not get this time. This article (in German, sorry) describes how the regimes in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the Emirates are more worried about the Muslim Brotherhood (including Hamas), other islamists and Iran than about Israel, so they are quite silent on the current offensive compared to earlier ones. (Not for noble reasons I guess, they just don't want to go down the Syria/Iraq route themselves).
Unfortunately the recent regime change means that Egypt can no longer function as a reliable mediator. It also explains why most big protests against Israel are now in Europe and Turkey, not in the Arab world as it used to be.

This is true. Palestinians, the majority of them being refugees, are often discriminated against by other Arabs. Palestinians are 60% of Jordan but Jordan uses gerrymandering to reduce their influence. Before the Gulf War, there were 400,000 Palestinians in Kuwait. Almost all of them were foreign workers from Jordan. 200,000 of them left voluntarily because of the occupation by Iraq. The remaining 200,000 were essentially kicked out by Kuwait.

[burningpet]

And yes, intentions are everything, because intentions specifically say loudly, that if israel could have, it would have spared those civilians.

So how do you know their intentions? Can you read minds? Or is it what they tell you. If the latter, why are you inclined to believe them?

Because as a soldier, i was never given an order to hurt a civilian, nor do i heard of anyone who was given that order. on the contrary, i was given orders to protect their lives if it was in my power to do so.

[GavJ]

Why are you not counting israelis displacements?

For the 80 bazillionth time, I am not trying to say one side is better. Yes, Israelis were displaced too. I.e. both groups of people have shown ample evidence of wishing to rule the land and drive the others into the sea, by their actions.

The only reason I'm focusing on Israeli actions is because that's the half we don't agree on already...

if israel could have, it would have spared those civilians. the problem is they couldn't do so because israel NEED to remove the terrorist threat.

They needed to become terrorists to remove terrorists?
Again, both are classified as war criminals currently by the UN.

So no, "removing the terrorist threat" doesn't hold water. There is no moral imperative for one terrorist to win over another. So they didn't "NEED" to do any such thing, from any objective standpoint. They merely WANT to, just like Hamas does. Because they hate each other.

[XXSockXX]

he also says that half the palestines are actually egyptians and the other half are saudis and other arabs. so, who's land have we stolen?

Sounds like he is trying to ask for more solidarity from Egypt and the Saudis, which Hamas might not get this time. This article (in German, sorry) describes how the regimes in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the Emirates are more worried about the Muslim Brotherhood (including Hamas), other islamists and Iran than about Israel, so they are quite silent on the current offensive compared to earlier ones. (Not for noble reasons I guess, they just don't want to go down the Syria/Iraq route themselves).
Unfortunately the recent regime change means that Egypt can no longer function as a reliable mediator. It also explains why most big protests against Israel are now in Europe and Turkey, not in the Arab world as it used to be.

This is true. Palestinians, the majority of them being refugees, are often discriminated against by other Arabs. Palestinians are 60% of Jordan but Jordan uses gerrymandering to reduce their influence. Before the Gulf War, there were 400,000 Palestinians in Kuwait. Almost all of them were foreign workers from Jordan. 200,000 of them left voluntarily because of the occupation by Iraq. The remaining 200,000 were essentially kicked out by Kuwait.

This was not about discrimination of Palestinians though (which is also a problem). It's about Arabic regimes seeing the Muslim Brotherhood as the bigger threat, which is a new development.

[GavJ]

i was given orders to protect their lives if it was in my power to do so.

It is within Israel's power to not take any of their lives. And within individual's soldiers' power as well. Shooting/bombing people is always a choice.

[Darvi]

Right, I can see that, and accept that at least nominally, the upper echelons of the chain of command doesn't want civilian casualties.

Now, how do you explain how so many civilians do die? Why do these incidents, such as that hospital shelling mentioned before, happen? And if you say "because we must" or "because there's Hamas" I will slap you through the 'net because there's so many more effective ways with less collateral damage.

[burningpet]

he also says that half the palestines are actually egyptians and the other half are saudis and other arabs. so, who's land have we stolen?

Sounds like he is trying to ask for more solidarity from Egypt and the Saudis, which Hamas might not get this time. This article (in German, sorry) describes how the regimes in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the Emirates are more worried about the Muslim Brotherhood (including Hamas), other islamists and Iran than about Israel, so they are quite silent on the current offensive compared to earlier ones. (Not for noble reasons I guess, they just don't want to go down the Syria/Iraq route themselves).
Unfortunately the recent regime change means that Egypt can no longer function as a reliable mediator. It also explains why most big protests against Israel are now in Europe and Turkey, not in the Arab world as it used to be.

Yeah, as i said earlier, the reason hamas didn't accept the truce was because qatar and turkey wanted to be given the credit for achieving that truce on the expense of the egyptians. the problem is that Qatar is meddling in the entire region through funding terror organizations, controlling the arab world perspective using Al jazeera and by influencing american and european opinions through huge investments in their countries. Qatar PR efforts extend to anything from buying bridges, building mosques, funding "peace" organizations, buying football clubs, buying the world cup and funding Barcelona FC shirts so long as they can appear progressive and advanced so people wont connect them with the barbaric, radical islamists, that they really are.

i was given orders to protect their lives if it was in my power to do so.

It is within Israel's power to not take any of their lives. And within individual's soldiers' power as well. Shooting/bombing people is always a choice.

No, it is not. not when it comes on the expense of israeli lives.

Right, I can see that, and accept that at least nominally, the upper echelons of the chain of command doesn't want civilian casualties.

Now, how do you explain how so many civilians do die? Why do these incidents, such as that hospital shelling mentioned before, happen? And if you say "because we must" or "because there's Hamas" I will slap you through the 'net because there's so many more effective ways with less collateral damage.

Show me an effective way that doesn't put israeli lives at risk.

[Darvi]

Raids. And no, soldiers don't count.

[GavJ]

I'm not suggesting that you sit around and do absolutely nothing aggressvie at all (although that IS indeed another very real possible choice. You not happening to like that choice doesn't mean it's not a choice. Buddhists make that choice all the time, for example, including having effectively given up a country for it. Which is actually a pretty close parallel).

I'm suggesting that dropping an area effect bomb is a choice versus other tactics like as Darvio mentioned, raids. And/or espionage. And/or fortifying in-range areas more. blah blah. Shooting a cloud of nails in a general direction from a tank is a choice versus, say, sniping exactly the combatants.

Risking being under fire for a little longer in order to be 100% sure of which person is a combatant versus 90% sure is a choice.

Playing whack-a-mole even if maybe slightly less efficient resource-wise for tunnels is a CHOICE, versus rolling in to shut them down from inside and inviting a lot more collateral street battles.