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[GlyphGryph]

Hamas has said time and time again, that they will not stop until Israel is driven into the sea.

Except that they have said, quite recently, that they will stop for a whole lot less than that, and haven't advocated for the destruction of Israel in... over a decade, now? Fatah also doesn't support such a thing, and Hamas has recently joined with them in a Unity government and thus (well, if it weren't for this Israeli operation) probably would have ended up moderating even more.

[GavJ]

Hamas wants an islamic caliphate that controls ALL of israel. how is that israel fault?

Because Israel came in and took all their land, duh.

I have no idea who, if anybody "deserves" the land so as to assign one-sided "fault," but that doesn't change the obvious reality that Israel is certainly very involved and relevant to Hamas' desires and plans to set up a government in the country.  Their actions have directly interfered with and replaced those plans with their own government.

So yes, Hamas' attacks are BECAUSE of Israel's actions. And Israel's attacks are BECAUSE of Hamas' actions. These are plain facts. How you choose to assign value and morals on top of those facts is a different matter, but the underlying basic facts remain.



Personally, the values and morals I place on top of those facts is that they are both pretty messed up, hateful people, and if they can't knock it off and coexist like adults, then NEITHER of them deserves the land.  As far as I care, split it up, give ultimatums, and a year to settle down, then if not, kick everybody out, send the refugees to their respective countries that have been providing financial military suppport (Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, and the U.S. and company, respectively), salt the earth, and landmine everything.

Not really, of course, but I don't think anybody deserves much better than that.

[burningpet]

Except that Fatah charter also mention the exact same thing, only over non-religious causes, and they also refused to change their charter.

Fatah charter, while suspicious, is not what hinder the peace talks. its hamas repeatable and multiple calls for the destruction of israel and the formation of a caliphate in its place, AND its ongoing offensive operations BEYOND israeli borders.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/ronn-torossian/hamas-palestinian-authority-brothers-to-spill-jewish-blood/
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/hamas-gaza-strip-palestine-israel-idf-zionist-524409

[XXSockXX]

They now want a return to 1967 borders.

What is omitted here, (but you can google "hamas 67 border" to find plenty of longer statements such as this or this) is the problematic part, they would not accept Israels right to exist and they would agree to a truce, not peace. So when moderate Hamas members make statements like that, it implies that they regard such a thing just as a temporary solution, leaving the option of conquering the rest later.

That is why Fatah, who are still actually interested in peace, has urged Hamas to accept Israel's right of existence. That could be a step toward a 2 state solution in the 1967 borders, although the Jerusalem question remains a huge mess and although there are security concerns in Israel over that.

[burningpet]

The way i see it, they can take east jerusalem and choke on it. the real issue will be the jordanian border, and the control over the jordan river. israel will never give that up. not after multiple river divertions attempts by palestines and not because we can see what is going to happen in jordan and what happened in egypt, lebanon and syria.

[GavJ]

its hamas repeatable and multiple calls for the destruction of israel and the formation of a caliphate in its place

Yes. Versus Israeli ACTUAL process of destruction of the Palestinians by killing like 8x as many of them over the years and about 100x as many more recently, despite an already much weaker, poorer, desperate position. They are actively driving them into the sea effectively, as we type. And ALREADY having formed a government in the state. These same things from Hamas' mouth would not be any less reasonable demands than the status quo for Israel.

Of course Israel is happy to bat their eyelashes and go "Oh we just want to stop fighting and have everything disappear" ! Duh... they already have exactly what they want...


"Status quo" <==> "crumbling Israel to dust and a caliphate"
Both are flip sides of the same coin in opposite.
Neither is really objectively reasonable. Neither is actual coexistence or tolerance.

[burningpet]

its hamas repeatable and multiple calls for the destruction of israel and the formation of a caliphate in its place

Yes. Versus Israeli ACTUAL process of destruction of the Palestinians and ALREADY having formed a government in the state. These are not any less reasonable demands than the status quo.

Of course Israel is happy to bat their eyelashes and go "Oh we just want to stop fighting and have everything disappear" ! Duh... they already have exactly what they want...


"Status quo" <==> "crumbling Israel to dust and a caliphate"
Both are flip sides of the same coin in opposite.
Neither is really objectively reasonable. Neither is actual coexistence or tolerance.

The destruction of Hamas terrorists, not palestines. at least that's the sweeping consensus. obviously there are radicals, but unlike in hamas, the radicals are not the dictators here, they are the frowned upon minority.

[Sergarr]

I doubt the palestians will appreciate the destruction of hamas. They already live like shit and you want to leave them without anything?

[burningpet]

They live like shit because of hamas. and without hamas they will be left with everything. the multiple billions they should have gotten with the aid that went into financing hamas leaders and/or their offensive tunnels and rockets. khaled mashaal has 13 houses in gaza and has started a construction of 4 giant towers and a business center in Doha, a project that worth well over $1BN (egyptian and saudi sources.)

http://www.jpost.com/Business/Business-Features/The-corruption-at-the-head-of-Hamas-363550

[burningpet]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtA5SKzCMAAnhXK.jpg

Hamas tries to falsify a picture of an apparent abduction, although, he got the missing soldier (almost certainly dead) details wrong and shown a guy wearing a tank crew jump suit, despite the soldier being an infantry soldier.

[Darvi]

Ye gods, learn to edit.

[GavJ]

at least that's the sweeping consensus.

If by "sweeping consensus" you mean "burningpet" then yes.

The destruction of Hamas terrorists, not palestines.

No, they're killing tons of non-Hamas Palestinians. Far more than Hamas is killing civilian Israelis.  Even by the most liberal estimates in this thread of Israeli supporters, including I think yours.

The most generous numbers I've seen here were ~30% civilians killed by Israelis, and ~70% by Hamas
But Israelis are killing 100x as many people overall short term, and 6x as many long term.

Short term: 0.3 * 100 = 30   vs.  0.7 * 1 = 0.7  end result: Israelis more recently killed 42 Palestinian civilians for every 1 Israeli civilian killed.
Long term: 0.3 * 6 = 1.8   vs.   0.7 * 1 = 0.7  end result: Israelis longer term (last many years) have killed 2.6 Palestinian civilians for every 1 Israeli civilian killed.
^ These being ACTUAL civilians by (I think) your definition / i.e. already-adjusted significantly and generously from the UN suggested numbers.

This is also extremely simplistic in lots of ways. For example it is not taking into account that bombing everything and firing clouds of nails into the streets is obviously going to be a pretty good cause for heightened Hamas recruitment... So doing this effectively turns a lot of appalled civilians INTO Hamas, which are then targeted, which isn't that different in my book than killing civilians originally... etc. etc.



I also strongly object to the label "terrorists" applied one-sidedly. They may well be terrorists, but it doesn't mean much if the other guys are also terrorists. The UN already identifies both parties as war criminals
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/16/world/middleeast/16gaza.html?_r=0

[burningpet]

Yep. no mention of a jihad against israel for over a decade

he also says that half the palestines are actually egyptians and the other half are saudis and other arabs. so, who's land have we stolen?

the people who lived here still live here. the arabs that ran away after trying to kill every israeli, are fewer in numbers than the jewish that were forced to leave their homes and riches in arab countries.

at least that's the sweeping consensus.

If by "sweeping consensus" you mean "burningpet" then yes.

The destruction of Hamas terrorists, not palestines.

No, they're killing tons of non-Hamas Palestinians. Far more than Hamas is killing civilian Israelis.  Even by the most liberal estimates in this thread of Israeli supporters, including I think yours.

The most generous numbers I've seen here were ~30% civilians killed by Israelis, and ~70% by Hamas
But Israelis are killing 100x as many people overall short term, and 6x as many long term.

Short term: 0.3 * 100 = 30   vs.  0.7 * 1 = 0.7  end result: Israelis more recently killed 42 Palestinian civilians for every 1 Israeli civilian killed.
Long term: 0.3 * 6 = 1.8   vs.   0.7 * 1 = 0.7  end result: Israelis longer term (last many years) have killed 2.6 Palestinian civilians for every 1 Israeli civilian killed.
^ These being ACTUAL civilians by (I think) your definition / i.e. already-adjusted significantly and generously from the UN suggested numbers.

This is also extremely simplistic in lots of ways. For example it is not taking into account that bombing everything and firing clouds of nails into the streets is obviously going to be a pretty good cause for heightened Hamas recruitment... So doing this effectively turns a lot of appalled civilians INTO Hamas, which are then targeted, which isn't that different in my book than killing civilians originally... etc. etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbgt2FhggOQ

No, i mean sweeping consensus by polls. although, i admit that recent ones show a reverse trend. understandable since israeli feel they can't bring themselves to trust terror organizations that vow to kill them (understandable) despite israel continues reached out hand. however, if you had conducted a poll of "would you want to kill palestines?" (not hamas terrorists), i'd bet it would be a sweeping No. while in gaza, that  might be a yes (nurtured by hamas, regardless of israel)

[GavJ]

No, i mean sweeping consensus by polls.

(disembodied, unspecified) Polls < UN fact finding missions

[burningpet]

As opposed to your opinion that israelis just want to kill palestines? is that a concrete fact?