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Author Topic: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!  (Read 372669 times)

Dutchling

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5730 on: July 21, 2014, 02:46:15 pm »

Off topic, but what makes RT so trustworthy when it comes to non Russian related news?
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burningpet

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5731 on: July 21, 2014, 02:52:34 pm »

To be fair even with all the extreme inner terror a lot of North Koreans are getting real sick of their government's shit, that's why Kimmy is only making his chances of surviving the digital world better by easing his grip over his people. I read that report and it seems a significant amount of the time the Palestinians who get recruited into suicide bombing do it because they're poor and want revenge, having had run ins with the IDF before. Does this seem like it's worth an addressing from you?

Hmm, sorry, just now read it.

hmm, honestly, this study is interesting, and extremely important, but i fear it fails to draw any distinctive conclusions.

While i don't doubt revenge comes into play, i still can't see how refraining from stopping terrorists from directly performing terror acts in the hope of pacifying the operative family can be considered a good strategy.

The study also fails to mention the effect of inner-family education and propaganda in increasing the likeliness of a family member to commit to suicide bombings nor does it mention the circumstances in which the suicide bomber came in contact with the IDF soldier previously to the suicide bombing act. it could very well be that the suicide bombing was simply the next level of an already extremely strong dedication to terrorism, or that the family education and atmosphere of attacking israelis might have caused the final trigger for suicide bombing. meaning, the suicide bombers came into contact with the IDF because they were terrorists to begin with, and, it may very well be that there are so many dead or detained family members because this family is surrounded around the idea of opposition through terror, which cultivated the suicide bombing incentive in the first place.

Since the study admits that the timing of the suicide bombings is determined, strategically, by the terror organizations and not by those who perform them, it can't be directly tied to the current economic situation. one might even conclude that in times of escalation, where the suicide bombings are likely to take place, the mutual economic ties between the palestines and israelis is severely damaged and poverty level rises. so both the suicide bombings and the poverty levels are simply the result of escalation, and not that poverty is the cause of suicide bombings.

Also, the study says that suicide bombers are better educated, which might hint at larger personal wealth. even without, it just expose the fact that you cannot take the entire unemployment rate and look at it as evidence without looking at the employment status of each of the suicide bombers.

Another also, let me emphasis that the second intifada started toward the end of 2000, the year with the lowest povery rates/unemployment rates. since the suicide bombing incidents can't be divided on a yearly basis like without looking at other factors, one might conclude that the year 2000 clearly shows this whole study reached the wrong conclusions and that the most violence erupted shortly after the best year palestines ever experienced.

In the conclusion, the study specifically mention it failed to reach a coherent conclusion given the data:
"Suicidal bombings are the product of both organizational strategy and individual-level incentives, and
neither level of analysis is sufficient in explaining its rise during the Second Intifada. On the one hand,
pursuing militant entities that deploy suicidal terror is a necessary component of an effective
counterterrorist response. However, if individual-level economic and social factors also generate increased
incentives for individual Palestinians to participate in these activities, stunting organizational growth alone
will not end attacks against Israeli targets."

There are too many maybes and ifs in this data and that is acknowledged in the study itself.

There are also many elements and factors that are missing in those calculations, and there is a lot of missing data in the factors the study dealt with (yearly analysis of the unemployment rates. it only shown several disjointed years). i am not saying this study was done so intentionally out of an agenda, i just think that it didn't do a really good job, at all.

Now, let me summarize it myself. i don't think helping palestines have better economy or education should be done so they wont commit to suicide bombings. i think it should be done because they deserve better lives. the problem, however, is that while israel is appeared to have some control over the economic strength of the palestines, in reality, its hands are cuffed both by the palestine EXTREMELY corrupted regimes (both in hamas and fatah) that deprive the palestines from money and materials and by the necessity to protect itself, which sadly means avoiding direct contact with palestines, ie, enforcing a blockade, checkpoints and refusing work permits, which again, is totally in the hands of palestines, as clearly evident by the second intifada eruption of a visit of ariel sharon to the El Aqsa mosque, the holiest jewish place on earth, after he was assured by the palestine authority it was ok. Sharon didn't even actually entered the mosque, but took the normal tour outside of it. that incited the second intifada, during the best year palestines ever had.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 03:04:33 pm by burningpet »
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5732 on: July 21, 2014, 02:55:46 pm »

I'm going to assume that post from burningpet is an apology for spreading the lies he was advocating that leafsnail debunked and bowing down before better sources and more convincing evidence. :)

Off topic, but what makes RT so trustworthy when it comes to non Russian related news?

I'm actually wondering the same thing myself - I've not really heard much good work they've done?
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Dutchling

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5733 on: July 21, 2014, 02:57:19 pm »

"lol im ignoring you so edgy xD"

Sorry, but that's what I'm reading there :x
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5734 on: July 21, 2014, 03:01:06 pm »

Israeli right-wingers upset that IDF is trying too hard to minimize civilian casualties.
"Israel should not be sacrificing its soldiers for the safety of Gaza residents, supporters of Hamas who voted to put the terror group in control of Gaza."
"We must force the enemy to surrender. We have to stop supplying them with electricity, food, and all other supplies until they surrender and disarm."
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183127#.U81w6i_TYnN
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 03:03:26 pm by GlyphGryph »
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Dutchling

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5735 on: July 21, 2014, 03:05:47 pm »

It's a valid concern.

Assuming you pretend international law isn't a thing. At least, I'm assuming that's why the Israelis did it as saving Palestinian lives* doesn't seem to be very high on their agenda.

*At a strategic cost or something similar of course. I'm not saying they're just doing it for the funsies.
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smjjames

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5736 on: July 21, 2014, 03:08:32 pm »

Israeli right-wingers upset that IDF is trying too hard to minimize civilian casualties.
"Israel should not be sacrificing its soldiers for the safety of Gaza residents, supporters of Hamas who voted to put the terror group in control of Gaza."
"We must force the enemy to surrender. We have to stop supplying them with electricity, food, and all other supplies until they surrender and disarm."
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183127#.U81w6i_TYnN

In other words, siege them. And if even THEN they don't surrender?

Not to mention that they can't selectively cut off Hamas members, they'd have to cut off the entire population, which is just going to make thousands of refugees flee the region.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5737 on: July 21, 2014, 03:15:46 pm »

Well, they seem to be stating that cutting off the entire population is the point, because everyone who lives in Gaza supports Hamas and thus are still culpable.
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smjjames

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5738 on: July 21, 2014, 03:18:58 pm »

Maybe they should try and do that just to see what the world reaction would be. /sarcasm

They wouldn't be able to completely cut off food and some supplies though because theres the Egyptian border.
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Zangi

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5739 on: July 21, 2014, 03:20:54 pm »

Not to mention that they can't selectively cut off Hamas members, they'd have to cut off the entire population, which is just going to make thousands of refugees flee the region.
I am pretty sure that there is a blockade that tries to prevent any Palastinians from fleeing the regionleaving the region to attack Israel... among other things.

Maybe they should try and do that just to see what the world reaction would be. /sarcasm

They wouldn't be able to completely cut off food and some supplies though because theres the Egyptian border.
Egypt also enforces the blockade.
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burningpet

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5740 on: July 21, 2014, 03:25:24 pm »

Not to mention that they can't selectively cut off Hamas members, they'd have to cut off the entire population, which is just going to make thousands of refugees flee the region.
I am pretty sure that there is a blockade that tries to prevent any Palastinians from fleeing the regionleaving the region to attack Israel... among other things.

Maybe they should try and do that just to see what the world reaction would be. /sarcasm

They wouldn't be able to completely cut off food and some supplies though because theres the Egyptian border.
Egypt also enforces the blockade.

Contrary to popular claims, it is the israeli crossings that still deliver supplies and medicine while the egyptians one are far stricter in inserting supplies.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5741 on: July 21, 2014, 03:37:46 pm »

It's not remotely enough supplies though.  Even before Protective Edge Gaza was facing a humanitarian crisis, with medical supplies running out and food shortages.

The other major issue is the fact that building supplies are on the restricted list, so every building Israel bombs is gone forever. This why Israel bombing hospitals is a huge problem - the extent of the civilian casualties isn't just the people who were in it when it was blown up, it's also the hundreds of people who will die due to lack of medical supplies and treatment.

LoL the daily mail just lost all credibility by failing to show the context in which this took place. those jewish brave men saved the lives of dozen of innocent people that attended a synagogue that was sieged by islamists. you can clearly see who's side the police took.
By the way, are you going to acknowledge that this claim you made is untrue?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 03:54:52 pm by Leafsnail »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5742 on: July 21, 2014, 03:41:18 pm »

Off topic, but what makes RT so trustworthy when it comes to non Russian related news?
They're very paranoid and search every corporation, news station and government for any secrets they would like to be kept secret with an intense vigour that borders on the zealous. Unless it's a Russian secret at which point they hushen down, but really that's to be expected of most national news stations.
Also don't trust any news station fully, always be skeptical. Because shit happens. But basically if you want to know something bad about the West without anything cut out, RT are there. For example Kremlin loves Snowden, the Guardian had all of their shit destroyed by the British authority and that leaves just the RT to report on it. And they love reporting on PRISM.

While i don't doubt revenge comes into play, i still can't see how refraining from stopping terrorists from directly performing terror acts in the hope of pacifying the operative family can be considered a good strategy.
Well if you think about it, the actions taken to stop the terrorist acts involve a high amount of civilian casualties, which drives more Palestinians to go to Hamas recruiters to martyr themselves. If you stop the influx of suicide bombers by taking away their reason for revenge, the existing suicide bombers will get caught or kill themselves if they succeed, and then their numbers will dwindle because no one else wants to die.

The study also fails to mention the effect of inner-family education and propaganda in increasing the likeliness of a family member to commit to suicide bombings nor does it mention the circumstances in which the suicide bomber came in contact with the IDF soldier previously to the suicide bombing act. it could very well be that the suicide bombing was simply the next level of an already extremely strong dedication to terrorism, or that the family education and atmosphere of attacking israelis might have caused the final trigger for suicide bombing. meaning, the suicide bombers came into contact with the IDF because they were terrorists to begin with, and, it may very well be that there are so many dead or detained family members because this family is surrounded around the idea of opposition through terror, which cultivated the suicide bombing incentive in the first place.
So I've been reading up on what motivates a suicide bomber [and am probably now on all the NSA watchlists]
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Suicide bombings also act as a recruitment advertisement in of its own, strengthening the resolve and support from the locals as it shows that their followers are dedicated enough to die for the cause.
Quote
There's a faulty premise in the current strategy on the war on terrorism. That faulty premise is that suicide terrorism and al- Qaida suicide terrorism in particular is mainly driven by an evil ideology Islamic fundamentalism independent of other circumstances.

However, the facts are that since 1980, suicide terrorist attacks from around the world over half have been secular. What over 95% of suicide attacks around the world [are about] is not religion, but a specific strategic purpose - to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland or prize greatly and this is, in fact, a centrepiece of al-Qaida's strategic logic, which is to compel the United States and western countries to abandon military commitments on the Arabian peninsula.
http://www.theguardian.com/news/blog/2006/aug/11/suicidebombers
And this bit talks about how political they are. So the more IDF soldiers take lethal walks through Palestinian neighbourhoods and the more Palestinians feel humiliated, the more suicide bombers will rise from the masses to blow themselves up.

So I do agree with you, the last study is probably wrong. But I don't think Israel should be preparing to administer to Palestine's economy or Palestine at all. America was doing its best to help Afghanistan in the Afghanistan war yet all it did was convince many of the Afghans to start hating America. Afghan-US relations have since actually very much improved, and Afghans now like the US, because the US has thrown tons of money at them to build roads and other essential things whilst reducing its military presence. If you extend the situation to Israel, working with a moderate Palestinian government towards building a stable and developed Palestine that can fight terrorists like Hamas on their own not only would make Israel safer, but would cease feelings of humiliation and stop Palestinians seeking revenge on Israel.

smjjames

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5743 on: July 21, 2014, 03:48:58 pm »

First though, they need to stop the cycle of violence which Hamas doesn't want to stop. Kind of difficult when only one of two sides wants to lay down arms, and breaks even a two hour cease fire.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5744 on: July 21, 2014, 03:50:58 pm »

The claims that the synagogue was somehow "under siege" beforehand are false.  The director of the synagogue in question appeared on the news and confirmed that.
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/synagogue-attributed-semitism.html
(the second video is the interview)
If you listen to that video (or read the summary on the site where the video is from), he says the people inside the synagogue were safe because they were protected by the police who turned the protesters away with tear gas. So not a siege really, but not no targeting (because why else the tear gas?).
Quote
Serge Benhaïm contextualise l’intervention des forces de l’ordre, 4 policiers côté Bastille, 2 policiers postés devant la porte de la synagogue. Des policiers qui auraient ensuite demandé du renfort selon ses dires. Resté devant la synagogue, il indique avoir constaté que les grenades lacrymogènes lancées par les forces de l’ordre ont "stoppé l’élan des premiers manifestants" et que cela a "sécurisé le bas de la rue de la Roquette" (côté Bastille, ndlr)

While he does not seem to like the JDL very much, he does not confirm that it was them who started the clash.
He also thinks there might have been confusion between these events and an earlier incident, where a molotov cocktail was thrown at another synagogue.
So while there may be conflicting versions of the events, it's not like nothing happened. Most reports mention attacks on 2 synagogues. This one has another short video of the scene.

Although the government has condemned the riots in Sarcelles, it looks like the police are lifting the ban on demonstrations, there will be another rally on Wednesday. From what I understand it was just the strategy of the police in Paris anyways, nothing nation-wide.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 04:00:39 pm by XXSockXX »
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