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[smjjames]

True. Just thought they'd be a bit more decent and leave that standing, but yeah, Hamas is as much at fault for using it.

It's hard to see how they'll secure a long term stability without occupying Gaza, which actually would probably make things worse.

When are the next Israeli elections? Just wondering.

[GlyphGryph]

There's no evidence the hospital was being used for military purposes (as in, rocket attacks or munitions storage) or that Hamas was "occupying it". I've seen attempted justification from IDF supporters being that they were treating injured Hamas fighters, but to be honest the officials are staying pretty mum on it so who knows.

Hamas is as much to blame here as Israel, as they're the ones who are using the hospitals for military purposes in the fist place.

No, no, I'm pretty sure the person who throws the bombs and actually blows up all the mothers and injured and sick people is more to blame than the people who are trying not to get blown up, as bad as those folk might be. Either way, Israel is most definitely still too blame, which the Palestinians civilians and medical workers killed aren't.

If you want a feeling for what it's like on the ground, here's a video of a crew working to recover wounded, when an unknown sniper starts opening fire on them, killing one and keeping the others hunkered down amid the rubble.
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/war-crime-video-shows-sniper-killing-wounded-gaza-civilian
Edit: Seen some criticism it might be faked in some way. Take with a grain of salt.

Edit:
If a bunch of mafiosos hid out in a hospital in Chicago during the anti-gang efforts, and the US government responded by bombing the place to rubble, do you really think people would be saying things like "well, the mafiosos were just as much to blame as the US government for hiding there"? Or would people simply be (rightly) pissed at the US government for deciding killing a whole bunch of innocent civilians was worth getting the bad guys, even if the bad guys were pretty much incapable of ever causing that much death and destruction on their own? If people did start talking about how the mafiosos were equally to blame when people tried to talk about how terrible it was, what would you think of those people?

[smjjames]

Oh, I thought Dutchling implied that the militants were using that hospital and Hamas is known to do that kind of thing, which is wht I repeated the 'as much to blame' thing.

But yeah, if Hamas isn't using it for launching rockets, then I don't see any point to it. Also, before anybody tosses the idea that the Hamas militants were being treated there, well, so are the rest of the population.....

edit: Nice analogy there GlyphGryph, I had thought of the analogy of criminals being treated in the hospital, but wasn't sure how to apply or make the analogy.

[Dutchling]

If a bunch of mafiosos hid out in a hospital in Chicago during the anti-gang efforts, and the US government responded by bombing the place to rubble, do you really think people would be saying things like "well, the mafiosos were just as much to blame as the US government for hiding there"? Or would people simply be (rightly) pissed at the US government for deciding killing a whole bunch of innocent civilians was worth getting the bad guys, even if the bad guys were pretty much incapable of ever causing that much death and destruction on their own? If people did start talking about how the mafiosos were equally to blame when people tried to talk about how terrible it was, what would you think of those people?

That analogy would make a lot more sense if Israel was known for ignoring Hamas militants hiding in hospitals.

[palsch]

Israel has started targeting the last operational hospital in Gaza.

So far, they've destroyed the Emergency Care area and the maternity ward.

Shortly after the initial attacks, those still inside received phone calls saying that Israel intends to completely destroy the remainder of the hospital, and those inside should evacuate.

Sources?

For one thing, I've been looking for a list of Gazan hospitals and coming up blank, but have found multiple hospitals which seem to be operating with no reports of attacks (eg, Al-Shifa, the largest in Gaza, or the Al Ahli Arab hospital, an Anglican mission hospital in the centre of Gaza city). Further I've seen absolutely zero reports of Israel contacting this hospital or even admitting to attacking it, one interview with the Guardian even explicitly stating it was "without a previous warning". Even the widely reported attacks on the al-Wafaa hospital have been disputed by the IDF, who have tweeted what are apparently photos of the targeted launch site in the area.

The most recent attack seems to be on the Al-Aqsa hospital (the same  and reports vary; early ones suggested it was a jet bombing, later artillery strike and now tank shelling. Photos supposedly showing the damage suggest a limited hit the upper floors, which would say tank shell to me. Israeli media seems to be questioning those images.

[smjjames]

If a bunch of mafiosos hid out in a hospital in Chicago during the anti-gang efforts, and the US government responded by bombing the place to rubble, do you really think people would be saying things like "well, the mafiosos were just as much to blame as the US government for hiding there"? Or would people simply be (rightly) pissed at the US government for deciding killing a whole bunch of innocent civilians was worth getting the bad guys, even if the bad guys were pretty much incapable of ever causing that much death and destruction on their own? If people did start talking about how the mafiosos were equally to blame when people tried to talk about how terrible it was, what would you think of those people?

That analogy would make a lot more sense if Israel was known for ignoring Hamas militants hiding in hospitals.

And the Chicago mob didn't go around shooting rockets or blowing things up, so not a complete anology.

[GlyphGryph]

For one thing, I've been looking for a list of Gazan hospitals and coming up blank, but have found multiple hospitals which seem to be operating with no reports of attacks (eg, Al-Shifa, the largest in Gaza, or the Al Ahli Arab hospital, an Anglican mission hospital in the centre of Gaza city). Further I've seen absolutely zero reports of Israel contacting this hospital or even admitting to attacking it, one interview with the Guardian even explicitly stating it was "without a previous warning". Even the widely reported attacks on the al-Wafaa hospital have been disputed by the IDF, who have tweeted what are apparently photos of the targeted launch site in the area.

The most recent attack seems to be on the Al-Aqsa hospital (the same  and reports vary; early ones suggested it was a jet bombing, later artillery strike and now tank shelling. Photos supposedly showing the damage suggest a limited hit the upper floors, which would say tank shell to me. Israeli media seems to be questioning those images.

I don't actually know if it was the last fully operational hospital, although that was what I read. It was, specifically, the Al-Aqsa hospital though, I was referring to. Foreign language source (http://www.dagbladet.no/2014/07/21/nyheter/utenriks/gaza/34440442/) so admittedly I could have read a mistranslation via Google translate or they could just be wrong or I could have just misunderstood.

Actually, it seems I was misinterpreting a statement that it was "the only hospital in the middle of the Gaza Strip", so I supposed there are probably others further from the center still operational?

And the Chicago mob didn't go around shooting rockets or blowing things up, so not a complete anology.

Errr... Well, okay, not rockets. They certainly killed a lot of people though, potentially even more than the rocket attacks have since 2001 though, so arguably they had a much more effective campaign of terror and murder than Hamas.

That analogy would make a lot more sense if Israel was known for ignoring Hamas militants hiding in hospitals.

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

[smjjames]

Yes the Chicago Mob killed people, I'm not denying that, they didn't use any bombs AFAIK.

Edit: Well, the mob during the time period we're talking about didn't use bombs AFAIK, but later mobs did.

[GlyphGryph]

Yes the Chicago Mob killed people, I'm not denying that, they didn't use any bombs AFAIK.

Is that... better, somehow? If they had used bombs, would the US Gov. killing a bunch of civilians to get to them with their own bombs be okay?

Also, I was under the impression they did, in fact, use quite a few bombs, especially in the early days before they'd really consolidated their power, and car bombs were fairly popular tactic through the 70s and 80s even. Hell, they've been bombing stores even into the 2000s.

[smjjames]

Yes the Chicago Mob killed people, I'm not denying that, they didn't use any bombs AFAIK.

Is that... better, somehow? If they had used bombs, would the US Gov. killing a bunch of civilians to get to them with their own bombs be okay?

Also, I was under the impression they did, in fact, use quite a few bombs, especially in the early days before they'd really consolidated their power, and car bombs were fairly popular the whole time.

I was probably thinking in the context of suicide bombs, but yeah, wouldn't be surprised if they used car bombs.

And to your question, no.

This is going into an offtopic tangent though.

Edit to GGs edit: I was thinking specifically the prohibition period as that's what you were talking about. Were you??

[GlyphGryph]

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/8468890-418/chicago-mob-figure-gets-60-years-in-berwyn-store-bombing.html#.U807si_TYnM

They bombed a whole lot of stores and civilians as well, here's an article of one of their bombings from 2003. Bombs and explosions have played a role throughout pretty much their entire history.

Unfortunately, it's really hard to specify specific time periods for google search results, so yeah. Tangent anyway. Suffice to say, the point is we can all agree the mafia were fucking terrible people, but we'd still probably hold the government 100% responsible for bombing/shelling/destroying occupied hospitals in an attempt to get rid of them.

[Dutchling]

That analogy would make a lot more sense if Israel was known for ignoring Hamas militants hiding in hospitals.

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

What I mean is that those mobsters would have known that inside a hospital they'd be safe from the US armed forces.
You'd have to be a very naive Hamas recruit to expect the same from the Israeli army.

[smjjames]

Look at my edit, I thought you were talking about the prohibition period for some reason. This is an offtopic tangent anyway.

[GlyphGryph]

I made some more edits too. This thread is moving too fast. >_< I was focusing on the RICO era though, when the US gov was actually taking action to destroy the Mafia's power.

[smjjames]

Okay so we were thinking of different periods, not sure why I thought you were talking about the prohibition era.

Lets drop this offtopic derail though.