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[Mr. Strange]

Now, what to say: Gratz, Israel! You're now doing a 'black vs black morality war' by this point to me. I'm not supporting either side because both sides are being shits. (putting it nicely)

If someone were to arrest everyone who's ordered or participated in illegal actions in Israel/Palestine you'd have to arrest most of the govermenting bodies on both sides...
That could actually be a good thing, if noone is organizing further escalation there would be hope for real lasting peace there, since from what I've seen most people in Israel and Palestine want the killing to stop ASAP.

[GlyphGryph]

If both sides stopped murdering, I'd be happy. I've been to ignorant to comment on the oppressing and stealing land stuff.

And by happy, I mean satisfied.

Unfortunately, there's no real incentive for either side to do so right now. The Palestinians tried the whole not-murdering thing, and it got them Operation Cast Lead, which was... well, look it up. And this, arguably, since they don't have personal control over every single person in their territory and Israel kidnapping all those folks pissed... someone off, anyway. Bleh. And Israel is winning, and its government is super popular among the large portion of incredibly racist citizenry (remember that this is the same government that treated ethopian jews as a "lesser Jew" and forcible sterilized many of them lest they outbreed the white jews, and while they stopped as a result of international condemnation it was... not exactly a rogue policy). Since they probably aren't going to actually suffer for their actions, they probably aren't going to stop.
It's a shitty situation.

And GA, technically they are both tank shells and airburst, they do look a bit less shotgun-like the more I look into them and a lot less discriminate.

[Leafsnail]

The point is that the use of flachette rounds in dense urban areas is not compatible with the concept of a "surgical strike".  If your only response is "but Hamas does it too" then we're back to "yes, then I guess the Israeli government should also be treated as a terrorist group".

Also anyone hoping that the ground invasion would result in fewer civilian casualties will be disappointed.

[GlyphGryph]

Well, that's the same argument Israel and it's supporters make when they use human shields, right? "The bad guys do it, so we're allowed to do it to!"

I don't... I don't think they really understand how this works.

(Mind you, Israel actually uses Palestinians as human shields, chaining them to the front of their vehicles and whatnot, so maybe that's the disconnect. Can you imagine the outcry if the Palestinians managed to use some actual Israeli's as human shields the way the Israeli's do?)

[GrizzlyAdamz]

Mk, I revise to 'mortar-fired'.

Here's a video of what looks like buckshot. The last clip is interesting, but it should be noted that flachette would have a much tighter spread thanks to their fins.

Well, that's the same argument Israel and it's supporters make when they use human shields, right? "The bad guys do it, so we're allowed to do it to!"

I don't... I don't think they really understand how this works.

(Mind you, Israel actually uses Palestinians as human shields, chaining them to the front of their vehicles and whatnot, so maybe that's the disconnect. Can you imagine the outcry if the Palestinians managed to use some actual Israeli's as human shields the way the Israeli's do?)

wat

[Sinistar]

-e
Heh, GG ninja-edited.

GO, it's more like a tank shotgun- the rounds explode mid-air but the flachettes only have a little time to spread out, everything still hits (around) what was pointed at.

@gg
Eh, flachette sounds nicer than HE- they don't go through cover.

I guess If we really wanted to be cynical we could even say "Hey! At least it's not depleted uranium rounds!"

In other news:
Shit unsurprisingly still hitting the fan in Libya

And also
Iraq Christians get Islamic State's warning

You know, you've gotta give them credit for at least playing by the book (heh heh, "The Book", get it? ...Eh.) and actually offering to pay tax too instead of just converting. Or, you know, straight death penalty. At least in this case.

And something more on the situation in Mosul.

[palsch]

I've been browsing a bunch of openly biased sites lately, simply because if you are expecting the racism and team-based cheerleading it's a lot less distasteful. Found some fairly interesting articles around the pro-Zionist web.

Hamas Interior Ministry's social media guidelines from the MEMRI. That's an institute in Washington started by an ex-Israeli intelligence employee which translates Arab and other Middle Eastern writings for a western audience. Obvious bias in their selection, but supposedly fairly accurate in their translations (not least because people are ready to call them out for any errors). The social media advice is exactly what you would expect; all casualties are civilians, downplay Hamas's military, avoid talking about martyrs to non-Arabs, etc.

Elder of Zion blog (biases not needing to be listed) crossed checked casualties from Operation Cast Lead against lists of militants. They found 342 claimed civilians listed as militants elsewhere. The links inside go to a complete link with references. Despite this being from 2009 it is being referenced in a few places with regards to current claims of civilian casualties.

Harry's Place (openly pro-Israel British leftist site with Israeli and American contributors... if that makes sense) look at the London protests. Of note are the "from the river to the sea" cries (saw a lot of that a couple of years ago) and this flier.

[burningpet]

Sorry misunderstood you there Darvi. was too quick to jump.   

GrizzlyAdamz - those are tank shells. and btw, it is not a prohibited weapon by the international treaty of 1995.

I agree with this. Both sides are utter bastards and anybody claiming otherwise has some major dissonance going on.

I agree that both sides can be equally vicious, but i disagree about the equal responsibility. the question of intention and motive is an important one and can't be overlooked. so long as hamas ultimate goal is to eradicate israel and form a caliphate in its place, their responsibility is far higher.

(Mind you, Israel actually uses Palestinians as human shields, chaining them to the front of their vehicles and whatnot, so maybe that's the disconnect. Can you imagine the outcry if the Palestinians managed to use some actual Israeli's as human shields the way the Israeli's do?)

The use of palestinians human shield is not chaining them to vehicles and what not, it WAS about letting the owner of the house or his neighbour to enter the house first. this tactic was deemed illegal by the israeli high court of law and is now frowned upon and whoever does that and gets reported, will and shall face trials and get thrown to jail.

The "problem" is that despite every best intentions of the israeli state and the IDF, the soldiers on the ground act on their own accord and sadly, many time palestinians don't report them because they don't know they can. one time in gaza i had to fight a group of infantry soldiers who "abused' a palestinian teen that just wanted to come to israel to work. the thing is, the specific orders is to detain those teens, give them food and water and bring them to the Shin Bet for questioning to see why they ran away and what information they can provide, through peaceful measures. you are not allowed to touch them or even speak to them. that group of soldiers previously lost a couple of friends in a raid on their outpost, so they lost control. that said, i didn't save his life or anything because their abuse was limited to casual slaps and not severe beatings. that's just one example of how israeli soldiers, by the virtue of being human beings for good and worse, sometime defy the high morales that is expected from them by their commanders.

The difference being is that while civilian casualties is considered a failure from israeli perspective, it is deemed a success from hamas perspective.

And the question of acceptance of a longer cease fire is not a question hamas can answer, since its Qatar and Turkey that direct its moves.

[GlyphGryph]

wat

During their ground operations, Israel soldiers seem to have a tendency to take captives and then have them go first into dangerous situations and using them as disincentives for enemy combatants to counterattack.




I've seen sources that cite the IDF using captured Palestinian civilians for
Entering buildings to check whether they are booby-trapped or to expel their occupants.
Removing suspicious objects from the road.
Standing inside houses that the IDF has turned into military positions, so that Palestinians will not fire at soldiers.
Walking in front of soldiers to shield them from gunfire.

From what I understand, this used to actually be official policy, but was "revised" in the mid 2000s so it's no longer the thing soldiers should do, but they still seem to do it? No idea if they've been doing it in the recent operation, though. I've not seen any evidence of any of the soldiers involved getting punished for it if they do it. Someone might be able to find said evidence if they want to argue Israel really has turned things around on this front.

[palsch]

Use of human shields was ruled illegal by Israel's Supreme Court in 2005 and there have been criminal investigations and convictions for their use since then (in that case, having a child open bags that were suspected of containing bombs...).

Hard to put together a systematic review through the propaganda fog, but at least there are institutional differences there.

[GlyphGryph]

Ah, that would explain why they dropped it as policy in the mid 2000's then, I knew they stopped doing it "officially" at that point, but didn't realize that was why.

Of course, then you remember that it apparently took a Supreme Court decision to get the military to stop publicly advocating the use of Palestinian captives as human shields, and that the military would probably still be advocating it if not for that... well, small steps, right?

433 killed and over 3,000 injuries

Netanyahu gave a speech:
""We are now in a war that was imposed on us and we will goto the end. [...] There is no more just war than this."

[GlyphGryph]

And even if flechette rounds aren't banned, that doesn't mean they can and should be used in areas with a high civilian density. Why not just lob a grenade into a house with a peaceful family and one Hamas operative instead?

Wait, are you saying that Israel shouldn't defend itself against Hamas terrorists just because they are using human shields? Anti-semite!

(But seriously that seems to be the actual policy of the IDF right now, ignore human shields and prioritize taking out hamas operatives, destroy buildings that they suspect might be housing them.)

Interview transcript time:

Blitzer: The President, President Obama urged the other day to all of the parties to return to the cease fire that was received in November 2012. Are you accepting his proposal, go back to that cease fire?

Netanyahu: I already did, I already did.

Blitzer: If Hamas were to say to you right now "We accept the cease fire," would Israel withdraw its forces from Gaza?

Netanyahu: That was the Egyptian proposal, which we accepted and they refused.

Blitzer: If they accepted now, is it too late?

Netanyahu: I don't know, I don't want to speak about it being too late. I think the first thing is cessation of hostilities but then we'd have to --

Blitzer: Would Israel withdraw its forces as part of a cessation of hostilities?

Netanyahu: Well, first we'd have to deal with this tunnel business because we're not leaving those tunnels --

Blitzer: So, you would stay until those tunnels are destroyed?

Netanyahu: We're doing that right now, as we speak.

Blitzer: How long is that going to take?

Netanyahu: It's being done fairly quickly. But I think the important thing right now is not to begin to put terms, the important thing right now is to end the hostilities, and we get into a situation where we have a sustainable cease fire. That means beginning to discuss the demilitarization of Gaza. Gaza, under all the previous agreements, should have been demilitarized. Instead of being demilitarized it became basically an Iranian-financed and equipped fortress of terror, with thousands and thousands of rockets and other weapons being smuggled and developed in it. That has to stop, those tunnels have to be shut down.

Looks like the Israeli plan is full occupation at this point?

[burningpet]

wat

During their ground operations, Israel soldiers seem to have a tendency to take captives and then have them go first into dangerous situations and using them as disincentives for enemy combatants to counterattack.




I've seen sources that cite the IDF using captured Palestinian civilians for
Entering buildings to check whether they are booby-trapped or to expel their occupants.
Removing suspicious objects from the road.
Standing inside houses that the IDF has turned into military positions, so that Palestinians will not fire at soldiers.
Walking in front of soldiers to shield them from gunfire.

From what I understand, this used to actually be official policy, but was "revised" in the mid 2000s so it's no longer the thing soldiers should do, but they still seem to do it? No idea if they've been doing it in the recent operation, though. I've not seen any evidence of any of the soldiers involved getting punished for it if they do it. Someone might be able to find said evidence if they want to argue Israel really has turned things around on this front.

The first picture, presented in this context is extremely misleading. that teen never rode the vehicle sitting on the hood.

The second picture show usage of older weapons (i persume that's "Protective shield"), and even then, could very well be just a detained terrorist (yes, there are under 18 yo terrorists), prior to delivering him back.

Btw, something is not right about this picture... something about the soldier stance, their appearance, their sleeves..

Again, this tactic you talk about indeed WAS used, but not anymore.

BP, regardless of the intent, at this point, they IDF seems to not give a fuck.

And even if flechette rounds aren't banned, that doesn't mean they can and should be used in areas with a high civilian density. Why not just lob a grenade into a house with a peaceful family and one Hamas operative instead?

What does an israeli soldier should do if that hamas operative that kept a house full of civilians as captives, throw greands and fire RPG's from that house on israeli soldiers?

[alway]

BP. I looked at your post, despite the ignore I put on you to try and avoid this.

Tell me, where did we say 'At least Hamas isn't using them!'?

If you think the justification 'Well, THEY'RE doing it!' means SHIT to me (and I'd wager nearly all the forumers here), you're sorely mistaken.

Now, what to say: Gratz, Israel! You're now doing a 'black vs black morality war' by this point to me. I'm not supporting either side because both sides are being shits. (putting it nicely)

Yeah, this. When you have to compare the actions of your government to an organization like Hamas as justification, you seriously need to sit down and think about where that will lead you. There will always be someone you don't like doing things you don't like. There will always be justifications for atrocities, that's why they continue to happen. If you fail to look at where that will lead you, you are absolutely doomed to have a government which becomes as bad as Hamas -- or worse.

Quite frankly, that's where most of the indignation here comes from. We do hold Israel to a higher standard than that of a terrorist organization.

[burningpet]

And even if flechette rounds aren't banned, that doesn't mean they can and should be used in areas with a high civilian density. Why not just lob a grenade into a house with a peaceful family and one Hamas operative instead?

Wait, are you saying that Israel shouldn't defend itself against Hamas terrorists just because they are using human shields? Anti-semite!

(But seriously that seems to be the actual policy of the IDF right now, ignore human shields and prioritize taking out hamas operatives, destroy buildings that they suspect might be housing them.)

Interview transcript time:

Blitzer: The President, President Obama urged the other day to all of the parties to return to the cease fire that was received in November 2012. Are you accepting his proposal, go back to that cease fire?

Netanyahu: I already did, I already did.

Blitzer: If Hamas were to say to you right now "We accept the cease fire," would Israel withdraw its forces from Gaza?

Netanyahu: That was the Egyptian proposal, which we accepted and they refused.

Blitzer: If they accepted now, is it too late?

Netanyahu: I don't know, I don't want to speak about it being too late. I think the first thing is cessation of hostilities but then we'd have to --

Blitzer: Would Israel withdraw its forces as part of a cessation of hostilities?

Netanyahu: Well, first we'd have to deal with this tunnel business because we're not leaving those tunnels --

Blitzer: So, you would stay until those tunnels are destroyed?

Netanyahu: We're doing that right now, as we speak.

Blitzer: How long is that going to take?

Netanyahu: It's being done fairly quickly. But I think the important thing right now is not to begin to put terms, the important thing right now is to end the hostilities, and we get into a situation where we have a sustainable cease fire. That means beginning to discuss the demilitarization of Gaza. Gaza, under all the previous agreements, should have been demilitarized. Instead of being demilitarized it became basically an Iranian-financed and equipped fortress of terror, with thousands and thousands of rockets and other weapons being smuggled and developed in it. That has to stop, those tunnels have to be shut down.

Looks like the Israeli plan is full occupation at this point?

He is talking about a demilitarized zone inspected by international forces, like israel proposed ages ago.