Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Leafsnail]

@burningpet: I've checked again and I to some degree stand by my original statement (at the very least your narrative is wrong).  As far as I can tell Hamas requested a 3 hour ceasefire, which the IDF initially refused.  They then changed their minds and decided to call a snap 2 hour ceasefire, and took Hamas' initial offer as consent for their new one.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183098#.U8vETLH65Dg
To me it's pretty unclear whether this actually constitutes a ceasefire agreement, you generally have to agree a time rather than suddenly deciding a length and timeframe that's convenient to you.  It's also somewhat unclear how they expected isolated fighters in a bombed out ruin of a district to know there was a ceasefire on at all.

e: also please stop patronising me, you are advocating war crimes right now

Conclusions you draw from what you see or experience are not the same as prejudice.

If you apply those conclusions across an entire population then yes it is.  How would this be any different from someone saying "I've seen images of Israelis on Facebook calling for all Palestinians to be slaughtered, therefore all Jewish people are bloodthirsty"?  You mustn't fall into the trap of doing the exact same thing as the people you're criticizing.

[LordSlowpoke]

* LordSlowpoke slaps owlbread

your parallel is bad and you should feel bad

come back when we put muslims in the cotton fields

[smjjames]

Also I did not say "all Muslims are a threat", but it is pretty clear that we have a problem integrating them (hard to explain to young Arabic students that killing Jews is not a good thing when they watch propaganda on Arabic TV at home), and that they bring all their conflicts here. I'm pretty sure that will not get better in the future.

On the other hand I live with 2 Iranians (though technically 1 of them is an atheist rather than a muslim) & have had zero problems. One of them (the muslim guy) likes to throw big parties, my house is constantly full of muslims from overseas. Again zero problems. I see lots of beer. I hear lots of talk about women. I hear little talk about politics & nothing advocating violence. I'd be careful about thinking Muslims imigrating in to your country is actually a problem just because some of them are arse-holes.

Beer? That's surprising since Muslims aren't supposed to drink alcohol.

[Owlbread]

* LordSlowpoke slaps owlbread

your parallel is bad and you should feel bad

come back when we put muslims in the cotton fields

We did. Up to 30% of the African male population of the USA in 1800 were Muslim slaves.

That aside, the fact that the Middle East was carved up by Western Powers along lines that suited them (late-period colonialism) just like Africa is a far stronger parallel.

[Sheb]

Yeah, and Christian aren't supposed to kill or steal or cheat of their wives, but a lot of them do it anyway. So what?

[LordSlowpoke]

are you really trying to say that during the colonial era we just shipped muslims into europe by the boatload and forced them into slavery, or that we did something akin to that after muslim states became independent, or are treating them like black people in the twenties or some other kinda sub-citizen group, because all of the former are ridiculous but go ahead

where, when, sources, make my day

bonus points for how to fix

[Owlbread]

are you really trying to say that during the colonial era we just shipped muslims into europe by the boatload and forced them into slavery, or that we did something akin to that after muslim states became independent, or are treating them like black people in the twenties or some other kinda sub-citizen group, because all of the former are ridiculous but go ahead

I was comparing the abominable situation in Gaza and Palestine as a whole and the injustices that are leveled at them by Israel (essentially a civil and human rights issue) with the injustices that were leveled at African Americans up to the mid 1960s, another civil and human rights issue. Sock's sweeping generalisations and attitude towards Muslims in Europe (it's not prejudice it's experience etc) would also be received very differently if he was talking about an ethnic group a lot of Western people are more sympathetic to in the modern era, like black people.

[XXSockXX]

I know guys like that too, a lot of the black people you'd encounter at a university are pretty much like that. On the other hand there is a significant part of the population that remains difficult to integrate, which may not be their fault alone, and who is susceptible to agressive behaviour and hateful propaganda.
I don't mind protests against the Jim Crow laws in principle, but they tend to take an ugly turn too often.

Think about it.

That is slightly unfair, and you know it. Analogies don't work that well with complicated issues.

Conclusions you draw from what you see or experience are not the same as prejudice.

If you apply those conclusions across an entire population then yes it is.  How would this be any different from someone saying "I've seen images of Israelis on Facebook calling for all Palestinians to be slaughtered, therefore all Jewish people are bloodthirsty"?  You mustn't fall into the trap of doing the exact same thing as the people you're criticizing.

I'm not. My argument is that a growing Muslim population leads to an increase in anti-semitism, not that all Muslims would be anti-semitic, but it is safe to say that at least a very vocal and aggressive minority of them is. Saying things that would lead to you being socially ostracized in other contexts (or in some cases like holocaust denial*, criminally prosecuted) become acceptable again, not only in parts of the Muslim community but also in parts of the far-left, who has developed a serious credibility problem in my opinion.

* These posters read "Allegedly victims in the past, now perpetrators themselves".

sweeping generalisations and attitude towards Muslims in Europe (it's not prejudice it's experience etc) 

Observing that integration of Muslims in Europe is not working very well is not a generalisation. It's something you can experience quite regularly around here. There are multiple reasons for that, and that is another huge can of worms (that does not fit into this thread), but simply ignoring that and calling it prejudice is not helping, and it is part of the problem actually.

[wobbly]

Also I did not say "all Muslims are a threat", but it is pretty clear that we have a problem integrating them (hard to explain to young Arabic students that killing Jews is not a good thing when they watch propaganda on Arabic TV at home), and that they bring all their conflicts here. I'm pretty sure that will not get better in the future.

On the other hand I live with 2 Iranians (though technically 1 of them is an atheist rather than a muslim) & have had zero problems. One of them (the muslim guy) likes to throw big parties, my house is constantly full of muslims from overseas. Again zero problems. I see lots of beer. I hear lots of talk about women. I hear little talk about politics & nothing advocating violence. I'd be careful about thinking Muslims imigrating in to your country is actually a problem just because some of them are arse-holes.

Beer? That's surprising since Muslims aren't supposed to drink alcohol.

The real world is full of surprises. They actually were the first real Iranian's I've met. Strangely enough they remind me of Greeks (probably offending a few Greeks or Iraninan's here).

[smirk]

Also I did not say "all Muslims are a threat", but it is pretty clear that we have a problem integrating them (hard to explain to young Arabic students that killing Jews is not a good thing when they watch propaganda on Arabic TV at home), and that they bring all their conflicts here. I'm pretty sure that will not get better in the future.

On the other hand I live with 2 Iranians (though technically 1 of them is an atheist rather than a muslim) & have had zero problems. One of them (the muslim guy) likes to throw big parties, my house is constantly full of muslims from overseas. Again zero problems. I see lots of beer. I hear lots of talk about women. I hear little talk about politics & nothing advocating violence. I'd be careful about thinking Muslims imigrating in to your country is actually a problem just because some of them are arse-holes.

Beer? That's surprising since Muslims aren't supposed to drink alcohol.

You should read up on Sufism, and the poet Hafez in particular. He was all about the alcohol.

[GavJ]

Regarding civilian deaths/attacks and terrorism etc.:

1) Guy comes and starts building a house on your front lawn, calls in a backhoe and everything. You complain, but he doesn't listen to you, even right to your face. No police forces are available or return your calls to help you.

That doesn't sound like an innocent civilian to me anymore. That's a trespassing invader, and in the analogous interpersonal example, I would absolutely physically stop him from doing that and feel perfectly justified in doing so. I understand that's by no means all of the civilians killed by Hamas, but it's a big chunk of them, who we might want to classify differently.

2) Even if we assume for sake of argument that Israel does kill 1/2 the percentage of civilians due to adjusted definitions, since they have long-term/historically killed about 4-6 times as many people as Hamas has, that would still mean that they've killed twice to three times as many innocent civilians. (And of course much more lopsided disproportionate force in recent days)

Honestly, if "terrorism" means "killing way less people but being more ideological and weird about those that you kill, and not doing it with as shiny of machines" then "terrorism" sounds fine by me. I care much more about people's lives being snuffed out, or rather, not being snuffed out, than about the window dressing that accompanies it. Cut off three people's toes or whatever bullshit and mail them to somebody then kill them, that'd be really messed up, but better in my book than killing 18 people with cold, sterile efficiency from the skies.

[Descan]

Also, pretty sure radical Islam is on the rise because holy shit the Middle East is kind of a balls-fucked place, eh?

You can't point to a bunch of shitty living conditions and say "See, Moslem Palestinians would still hate Israel and declare Jihad even if they had modern living conditions!"

Radical Moslems support Islamism and violent jihad because they have nothing to lose and tend to live in shit situations, or their country tends to be in a shit situation, considering all the trained engineers and university student upper-middle-class members of Al'Qaeda and such. Palestinian Gazans support Hamas because they have nothing to lose and they're living in a shit situation. If you give them something to lose and help the situation rather than blockade them (Gaza) or colonize them (West Bank) then maybe the rockets will stop, eh?

(And yes, if you ask the Jihadists, they'll say they're doing it for the glory of Al'lah. Which is probably true. But if your culture glorifies jihad because of hundreds of years of colonization and shitty living, and if your only real option in life is to delve deep into religion, then it's not really surprising. Just look at the millions of Moslems living in Canada, or America, or Europe, who don't support terrorism, who just want to live their lives. And yes, I know that they do support Sharia a lot, but what kind of Sharia? Radical sharia or the old-style sharia, of local judges and such? Not saying Sharia is good because a judiciary based on 1300 year old book by an illiterate herdsman is laughable, but at least the old-style sharia wasn't "Chop everyones head off!")

[burningpet]

Also, pretty sure radical Islam is on the rise because holy shit the Middle East is kind of a balls-fucked place, eh?

You can't point to a bunch of shitty living conditions and say "See, Moslem Palestinians would still hate Israel and declare Jihad even if they had modern living conditions!"

Radical Moslems support Islamism and violent jihad because they have nothing to lose and tend to live in shit situations, or their country tends to be in a shit situation, considering all the trained engineers and university student upper-middle-class members of Al'Qaeda and such. Palestinian Gazans support Hamas because they have nothing to lose and they're living in a shit situation. If you give them something to lose and help the situation rather than blockade them (Gaza) or colonize them (West Bank) then maybe the rockets will stop, eh?

(And yes, if you ask the Jihadists, they'll say they're doing it for the glory of Al'lah. Which is probably true. But if your culture glorifies jihad because of hundreds of years of colonization and shitty living, and if your only real option in life is to delve deep into religion, then it's not really surprising. Just look at the millions of Moslems living in Canada, or America, or Europe, who don't support terrorism, who just want to live their lives. And yes, I know that they do support Sharia a lot, but what kind of Sharia? Radical sharia or the old-style sharia, of local judges and such? Not saying Sharia is good because a judiciary based on 1300 year old book by an illiterate herdsman is laughable, but at least the old-style sharia wasn't "Chop everyones head off!")

Funny, seeing qatar and saudi arabia as the home brew for radical islam.

[Sheb]

Actually, I don't think most of the civilians killed by Hamas are settlers, at least not recently. After all, Israel did pull out of Gaza in 2005, and Hamas has been more or less pushed out of the West Bank following the 2007 election.

As far as I can tell, Hamas killed two civilians since the beginning of the current escalation. One of them was apparently bringing food to soldiers so it's possible that he was hit by a rocket aimed at the soldier, but the other was definitely a non-combatant.

[Descan]

Also, pretty sure radical Islam is on the rise because holy shit the Middle East is kind of a balls-fucked place, eh?

You can't point to a bunch of shitty living conditions and say "See, Moslem Palestinians would still hate Israel and declare Jihad even if they had modern living conditions!"

Radical Moslems support Islamism and violent jihad because they have nothing to lose and tend to live in shit situations, or their country tends to be in a shit situation, considering all the trained engineers and university student upper-middle-class members of Al'Qaeda and such. Palestinian Gazans support Hamas because they have nothing to lose and they're living in a shit situation. If you give them something to lose and help the situation rather than blockade them (Gaza) or colonize them (West Bank) then maybe the rockets will stop, eh?

(And yes, if you ask the Jihadists, they'll say they're doing it for the glory of Al'lah. Which is probably true. But if your culture glorifies jihad because of hundreds of years of colonization and shitty living, and if your only real option in life is to delve deep into religion, then it's not really surprising. Just look at the millions of Moslems living in Canada, or America, or Europe, who don't support terrorism, who just want to live their lives. And yes, I know that they do support Sharia a lot, but what kind of Sharia? Radical sharia or the old-style sharia, of local judges and such? Not saying Sharia is good because a judiciary based on 1300 year old book by an illiterate herdsman is laughable, but at least the old-style sharia wasn't "Chop everyones head off!")

Funny, seeing qatar and saudi arabia as the home brew for radical islam.

They're rich the same way the old European monarchies were rich: The upper tier are insanely wealthy, but a large underclass.