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[Loud Whispers]

What this map doesn't show is that prior to 1946, all this green goo wasn't palestine land at all and that who ever lived in the majority of it, still does in FAR better conditions than in the surrounding arab countries, and that in most of these places, the residents actually hate the palestines deeper than israelis ever had.

Yeah all that green goo was delicious British land. Ahem. Moving on, it was Palestine, full of Palestinians. You have seen the surrounding countries too right? You've really set the bar low when you're comparing yourselves to such wonders of stability like Iraq or Egypt.

What this map doesn't show is that the reason for the shrink in 1947, that is because palestines tried to drive all jews to the sea, despite them getting the majority of the then fertile land. this map doesn't show that israel, for some reason, never had that motive.

Oh don't try to pass off this as an innocent action, there were no good guys. It was nationalists building a nation on top of a nation of nationalists, it isn't a terrible consolation that Israel 'only' took over half of their land. You can't even say it was a defensive war on the basis that the Israelis had started taking more land than the lines drawn up from the UN mandate before the war began and had already begun expelling Arabs from their land before the war began.

What this map doesn't show is the giving up of the sinai peninsula which is 3 times larger than israel and has an access to the suez canal which is FAR more profitable than any other israeli landmark

After being pressured into doing so by both the USSR and the USA.

Israel then returned in 1967 kicked out the locals and began building settlements which would only later be removed once Israel signed a new peace treaty with Egypt.
Hilarious.

What this map doesn't show, is the removal of settlements from the gaza strip.

It does show Israel removing Palestine.

What this map doesn't show, is the almost complete reduction of suicide bombings in the middle of civilian centers because of the settlements in the west bank.

It also doesn't show Israeli bombing of civilian centers in the west bank.

What this map doesn't show, is the population trend of Arab/palestine population increase versus israeli, that clearly shows there is no hidden agenda of driving out arabs nor that israel is committing a "genocide"

You're right, it's not a secret that Israel bulldozes Palestinian houses, cuts off their water and terrorizes their neighbourhoods. Hell, Israeli doctors were even caught forcibly sterilizing non-Jewish immigrants.

The real maps and the real motives and the real history, CLEARLY shows israel is more than willing to part from land in exchange for peace.

Yeah, real history is written by Israel.

Blind anti-zionism/Possible anti semitism and half baked fabricated evidence that neglects the bigger picture or only shows one side is what restore faith within bay12?

Totally, I wake up every morning eating a bowl of free tibet Palestine. Are you seriously equating criticism of Israel with antisemitism? You're having a laff.

What logic and evidence? people argued with me over half a page about "smuggling tunnels to israel and the reason for their existence"

Well I don't know about any of that but if we're talking about the conduct of how some people are arguing perhaps you should be a bit more objective with your stance because when I argued with you about Israel's development and the role US aid has had in it you've sorta been using criticisms of Israel as your own argument as if they were good things. Like now, as if giving up the Suez Canal was supposed to have been a sign of Israel's benevolence. Pots and kettles calling each other black and all that, I don't see your logic and your evidence is an odd version contrary to what international observers are presenting.

I'm not a bleeding heart activist frothing at the mouth to see Israel turned into the 21st century's latest imploded state in the middle east, but there's no doubting Israel has been the dominant power in the middle east for quite some time now and has not wielded its status gracefully nor with consideration for anyone who's not Jewish.

[burningpet]

Anyway, what I came here to post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/07/18/raw-footage-israeli-forces-storm-holiest-mosque-in-jerusalem/

Reminder: That's the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Ariel Sharon entering that mosque kicked off the Second Intifada.

Reminder - This mosque is built on israel most holy place. and the israeli forces stormed it after palestines threw rocks/molotovs/explosive devices from it.

And if a visitation to it incited a whole intifada, how can we aspire to peace? i mean, seriously, is that your argument? that an israeli prime minister dared to visit the most holy place of the jewish religion? that's the incentive? oh, well, i guess its better than an anti-muhamad caricature

[Leafsnail]

The fact israel gave back "tiny amount" of the most profitable land that is 3 times as big as israel is not evidence enough for israel willingness to part with land?

Wait are you seriously suggesting that holding on to that land was a realistic option?

lso you're failing to address my core argumemt: why should a (still active) thief be commended for giving back some of his ill-gotten gains?

And the fact palestines responded for israel giving up gaza with increasing terror attacks is what keeps the west bank under israeli control, so as to prevent further suicide bombings and not because of aspiration to extend israeli lands.

This is a very dodgy timeline, but even if we accept that the West Bank must have a permanent military occupation how does that justify the movement of an Israeli civilian population into it?  Reminder that this is an unambiguous act of war (and something Israel continues to do during "ceasefires").

[burningpet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bJaVeUaNkg

An egyptian doctor, who had joined a radical islamist terror organization with the now Al qaeda leader, explain why radical islam is a threat to the world and how groups in the arab world, with hamas in it, exploit palestines to enforce their twisted evil ideology.

This man was forced to run away to the west after islamists have tried assassinating him.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7825842/Why-I-Love-Israel-Based-on-the-Quran

Sudan editor was severely beaten for calling to form diplomatic ties with israel
http://www.outlookindia.com/news/article/Sudan-Editor-Severely-Beaten-After-Call-for-Israeli-Ties/850678

Apparently, after UNRWA have found dozens of rockets hidden inside one of its school, it did the most logical thing to them and "returned the rockets to the palestinians authorities." its "funny", because its the same "Palestinian authorities" that placed the ready-to-launch rockets inside this school in the first place.
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/598/364.html?hp=1&cat=666&loc=4

UN ambulances that serve as vehicles for terrorists.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10203511202234059&set=vb.1034145766&type=2&theater
While i am pretty sure its an old footage, it is extremely relevant because this exact same tactic is still used by terrorists today.

Israel has decided to set up a field hospital for palestinians:
http://rotter.net/forum/scoops1/120404.shtml?utm_source=rotter.net&utm_medium=newsticker

Hamas just asked a humanitarian truce for a couple of hours. israel complied and the truce took effect between 13:30 - 15:30.
Now, 14:19, hamas has shot multiple rockets toward civilian populations.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.606129

[Leafsnail]

Israel appears to be aiming at Palestinian journalists with strikes, thus targeting civilians.  This isn't the first time.

Hamas just asked a humanitarian truce for a couple of hours. israel complied and the truce took effect between 13:30 - 15:30.
Now, 14:19, hamas has shot multiple rockets toward civilian populations.

e: actually I'm pretty confused about this ceasefire, I'm reading conflicting accounts.  It seems to have been requested by the Red Cross, and broken about an hour in by someone?

[Sheb]

burningpet, we all agree that Hamas are assholes. That's why we don't actually spend our time discussing it, because we all agree on it. We just think that this matter is settled, and we're quite happy with the way Hamas is treated by the West as a result (you know, declared a terrorist organization and all that jazz). We'd just wish Israel was held accountable for its crime the way Hamas is.

Also, while you do have anti-semite among the anti-Israeli protesters doesn't mean that anti-sionism is anti-semitism. The same way that the fact that some of the pro-Israeli, anti-Hamas are racists means that opposing Hamas is racism (Like that MK I quoted earlier, or the members of the "Jewish Defense League" that attacked pro-Palestinian protestors in Paris while hurling racial abuse).

[XXSockXX]

Also, while you do have anti-semite among the anti-Israeli protesters doesn't mean that anti-sionism is anti-semitism.

The problem with this is twofold in my opinion:
- a lot of these protesters seem completely unable or unwilling to differentiate between "the Israeli government" and "the Jews" (usually the problem is Muslims attacking synagogues and Jewish people, so I completely understand the ban on protests in France)
- if it involves Israel, people will protest en masse, if it doesn't, there will be no protests or only few (I have yet to see significant protests against Assad, ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Quaeda, even US drone strikes in Pakistan/Afghanistan/Yemen get less attention than this)

If a German newspaper article begins: "Not since the Nazi era have anti-jewish paroles been chanted that openly and unopposed in Berlin like at the recent Arabic protests against the Gaza conflict.", that is a fucking embarrasment. Luckily we have laws against that.
Yesterday I saw a group of (admittedly pretty young) Arabs chanting "free Palestine" and other stuff, kicking parked cars and being close to rioting. If that happens in a relatively calm place like where I live, that just goes to show that Muslim immigration is a ticking time-bomb for peace in Europe.

[Leafsnail]

- if it involves Israel, people will protest en masse, if it doesn't, there will be no protests or only few (I have yet to see significant protests against Assad, ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Quaeda, even US drone strikes in Pakistan/Afghanistan/Yemen get less attention than this)

The first of those is widely recognized as a leader who is slaughtering his own people, and he has received huge sanctions.  The next three are widely known to be terrorist organizations (in other words protesting against them would be hilariously meaningless, considering that the government already knows they are bad).  The last one is in fact protested against constantly, it's one of the biggest issues for most leftists.

Israel, on the other hand, is supported by the western world, particularly the US.  We are the ones enabling their war crimes.  We should be protesting that, and getting our leaders to change their attitudes.

If that happens in a relatively calm place like where I live, that just goes to show that Muslim immigration is a ticking time-bomb for peace in Europe.

I like how you write a post about your concern of equating "Israel" with "all Jewish people", and then end with "And this is why all Muslims are a terrible threat to Europe".  Can you really not see the hypocrisy?  Also I have no idea why you think kicking parked cars is so significant

[XXSockXX]

If that happens in a relatively calm place like where I live, that just goes to show that Muslim immigration is a ticking time-bomb for peace in Europe.

I like how you write a post about your concern of equating "Israel" with "all Jewish people", and then end with "And this is why all Muslims are a terrible threat to Europe".  Can you really not see the hypocrisy?  Also I have no idea why you think kicking parked cars is so significant

It's not really significant so far, but I would rather not see my town go down the route of several nearby French cities, where there are annual riots with hundreds of cars burned etc.
Also I did not say "all Muslims are a threat", but it is pretty clear that we have a problem integrating them (hard to explain to young Arabic students that killing Jews is not a good thing when they watch propaganda on Arabic TV at home), and that they bring all their conflicts here. I'm pretty sure that will not get better in the future.

[Leafsnail]

So in other words it's ok to be prejudiced, you just have to make sure you're prejudiced against Muslims rather than Jews?

[burningpet]

Israel appears to be aiming at Palestinian journalists with strikes, thus targeting civilians.  This isn't the first time.

Hamas just asked a humanitarian truce for a couple of hours. israel complied and the truce took effect between 13:30 - 15:30.
Now, 14:19, hamas has shot multiple rockets toward civilian populations.

e: actually I'm pretty confused about this ceasefire, I'm reading conflicting accounts.  It seems to have been requested by the Red Cross, and broken about an hour in by someone?

No, you were not confused, what you did was simply automatically fabricating/propagating a disinformation because it suited your agenda. whether you did that DESPITE knowing the truth,  REGARDLESS of knowing the truth or WITHOUT knowing the truth, it doesn't matter. what you did was acting, most possibly unknowingly, as a propaganda vehicle of an extremely radical terror organization that is making the lives of millions of innocent civilians a living hell and exploit them as means for political power. if that recent automatic and senseless action will cause you to maybe deepen your research and broaden your knowledge regarding this whole situation, then not only me and the rest of the free world have profited, but you as well.

Sheb - first, i don't think you all agree to that. people here are under the impression hamas is a legitimate organization that came to power in a free and democratic elections and that it has nothing to do with how palestinians live their lives in the Gazan strip or that israel is somehow responsible for the rise of its popularity, despite seeing that throughout the entire muslim world, the radical islam is gaining power and have aspirations that doesn't even directly involve Israel or palestine and despite clearly seeing this region timelines that tells a very obvious story.

And israel crimes, and there are crimes, i don't reject that and i have condemned them, but they are crimes that are being performed reluctantly in order to maintain israeli peace and security. If you cannot tell the difference between israel's actions, both in terms of intention and both in terms of causes to hamas and its responsibility for those crimes, then no, knowing that hamas are assholes is not enough because you are excusing their action results, despite knowing their intentions. and by presenting the operation in gaza in a complete one sided and biased perspective, you benefit hamas only, not the palestine people nor the world.

The jewish defense league probably saved the lives of that synagogue attenders. or are you talking about a different clash? the only one i know of was the one the JDL rushed to prevent the islamists from killing the jews in that synagogue, if there are others, well, enlighten me.

Btw, Hamas is partially and indirectly being funded through the UN / UNRWA with american and european money.

[wobbly]

Also I did not say "all Muslims are a threat", but it is pretty clear that we have a problem integrating them (hard to explain to young Arabic students that killing Jews is not a good thing when they watch propaganda on Arabic TV at home), and that they bring all their conflicts here. I'm pretty sure that will not get better in the future.

On the other hand I live with 2 Iranians (though technically 1 of them is an atheist rather than a muslim) & have had zero problems. One of them (the muslim guy) likes to throw big parties, my house is constantly full of muslims from overseas. Again zero problems. I see lots of beer. I hear lots of talk about women. I hear little talk about politics & nothing advocating violence. I'd be careful about thinking Muslims imigrating in to your country is actually a problem just because some of them are arse-holes.

[XXSockXX]

So in other words it's ok to be prejudiced, you just have to make sure you're prejudiced against Muslims rather than Jews?

Conclusions you draw from what you see or experience are not the same as prejudice. At the moment there is a rather hostile atmosphere coming across from parts of the Muslim population, I don't see how worrying about that is being prejudiced.

On the other hand I live with 2 Iranians (though technically 1 of them is an atheist rather than a muslim) & have had zero problems. One of them (the muslim guy) likes to throw big parties, my house is constantly full of muslims from overseas. Again zero problems. I see lots of beer. I hear lots of talk about women. I hear little talk about politics & nothing advocating violence. I'd be careful about thinking Muslims imigrating in to your country is actually a problem just because some of them are arse-holes.

I know guys like that too, a lot of the Muslims you'd encounter at a university are pretty much like that. On the other hand there is a significant part of the population that remains difficult to integrate, which may not be their fault alone, and who is susceptible to agressive behaviour and hateful propaganda.
I don't mind protests against Israel in principle, but they tend to take an ugly turn too often.

[Sheb]

So you're saying that the building of settlements on the West bank is done reluctantly to further Israel security, as opposed to being a land grab?

Also, in none of the previous clashes did anti-semites kills jews during the protest. You're just excusing violence because it's from your side again.

[Owlbread]

Conclusions you draw from what you see or experience are not the same as prejudice. At the moment there is a rather hostile atmosphere coming across from parts of the black population, I don't see how worrying about that is being prejudiced.

I know guys like that too, a lot of the black people you'd encounter at a university are pretty much like that. On the other hand there is a significant part of the population that remains difficult to integrate, which may not be their fault alone, and who is susceptible to agressive behaviour and hateful propaganda.
I don't mind protests against the Jim Crow laws in principle, but they tend to take an ugly turn too often.

Think about it.