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[Angle]

Yeah, that is pretty terrible- though I don't see evidence of these people being forced. To me it looks like they're taking overzealous civilians and using them

[GavJ]

I was referring to the illegal settlement in the west bank.

The heart of the entire situation is that "legal" is an almost meaningless term here in the grand scheme of things.

Basically, some British folks waltzed in and made some arbitrary decisions in favor of people that were closer to their own personal cultural background (shocker), and that's what the "legalities" are based on at root.

It has little if anything to do with what either Israelis or Palestinians actually care about most, or any actual "moral"historical realities, which is why defining "self defense" or "aggression" based on the Western legalities is not going to get you very far in actual understanding or resolution of the situation.

Also, both Israel and hamas have historically killed an almost equal percentage of civilians, which makes me not super impressed by using civilians as a justification for claims of evil or good intentions or whatever, at the end of the day.

[burningpet]

I don't think you can blame that entirely on Hamas. Yes, they are interested in perpetuating the conflict for their own gain, but so is Israel. And Israel is perfectly willing to play along with that script.

What does israel gain from a conflict with the palestines?

Also, both Israel and hamas have historically killed an almost equal percentage of civilians..

That is simply not true! even the official UN numbers shows that israeli civilian casualties percentage is higher and those UN numbers are based on enormously skewed data, whereas a combatant that is not directly killed during an armed conflict is considered a civilian (!). an unofficial hamas operative can shoot rockets, ran away, get tracked and killed the next day and he will be considered a civilian casualty (!).

Palestinian women makes up 6% of the casualties, while forming 50% of the population. how is that possible?

[Angle]

What does Israel gain from a conflict with the Palestinians?

All of Palestine. From what I can see, their plan is basically to slowly chew bits and pieces off, settle them, and then use the conflict that results from that to chew more pieces off. Hamas is helping by causing further conflict to goad the Palestinians and other Muslims into supporting them, in order to gain power in the short term, and maybe they're hoping for a serious jihad in the long term? They don't make much sense.

[GavJ]

Yes I am using UN figures. If you have a less biased source with hard numbers, by all means, share it.

The UN estimates 59% Palestinian mortal casualties as civilians, and 69% of Israeli mortal casualties as civilians. That's just simply not significantly far apart. I sympathize with your complaints about what they identify as a "civilian" but 1) I don't see clearly how this biases the data toward one side and not the other (perhaps you can clarify the reasoning there?), and 2) Again, what better numbers should we be using instead?

What does israel gain from a conflict with the palestines?

They both want control of what is currently Israeli soil (and more, beyond that, but most of all, that). The fact that Israel happens to have it at the moment is effectively a quirk of history that could almost as easily have gone the other way, thus their status as "defenders" seems fairly coincidental versus palestinians as "aggressors" and thus, consequently, "gaining something" from war versus peace is also equally coincidental.

If it had been the other way around, with external forces granting control of the land to palestinians, and israelis somehow being concentrated in a population right next door, then the preferences would be completely reversed, with palestinians "preferring peace" (i.e., the land) and israelis "preferring conflict" (in order to gain control of the land, also).



What they both prefer is the land -- whether peace or conflict leads to having the land is what they will desire, respectively, as a result, no matter the specifics.

[burningpet]

All of Palestine. From what I can see, their plan is basically to slowly chew bits and pieces off, settle them, and then use the conflict that results from that to chew more pieces off. Hamas is helping by causing further conflict to goad the Palestinians and other Muslims into supporting them, in order to gain power in the short term, and maybe they're hoping for a serious jihad in the long term? They don't make much sense.

All of palestine? then why israel gave back the gaza strip? and why would israel want to govern the palestinians?

lets assume that no matter what, palestines will remain peaceful. under their government or ours, doesn't matter.
Why would israel wish to have them under our government and force to pay welfare to such a large uneducated mass? the israeli arabs already takes 58% of our social security payments while providing ~5% of the taxes, so why would israel wish to extend it even further?

I am afraid that this narrative is "slightly" wrong. israel has nothing to do in the west bank/gaza, EXCEPT use it as a buffer to try and prevent terror attacks against israeli citizens.

Yes I am using UN figures. If you have a less biased source with hard numbers, by all means, share it.

The UN estimates 59% Palestinian mortal casualties as civilians, and 69% of Israeli mortal casualties as civilians. That's just simply not significantly far apart. I sympathize with your complaints about what they identify as a "civilian" but 1) I don't see clearly how this biases the data toward one side and not the other (perhaps you can clarify the reasoning there?), and 2) Again, what better numbers should we be using instead?

No, you are using Betzelem figures that the UN used. there were multiple studies that shown how betzelem determined which casualty is a civilian and which is not. in their defence, they claimed its extremely hard to determine civilians/combatives among the palestines.

1) Because it doesn't do that in regarding to israeli figures. in israel, every soldier is officially regarded as a military casualty, even if he died while on vacation.

2) Honestly, i don't have another source except ones that break apart Betzelem ones but that doesn't mean the UN source is accurate.

They both want control of what is currently Israeli soil (and more, beyond that, but most of all, that). The fact that Israel happens to have it at the moment is effectively a quirk of history that could almost as easily have gone the other way, thus their status as "defenders" seems fairly coincidental versus palestinians as "aggressors" and thus, consequently, "gaining something" from war versus peace is also equally coincidental.

If it had been the other way around, with external forces granting control of the land to palestinians, and israelis somehow being concentrated in a population right next door, then the preferences would be completely reversed, with palestinians "preferring peace" (i.e., the land) and israelis "preferring conflict" (in order to gain control of the land, also).

What they both prefer is the land -- whether peace or conflict leads to having the land is what they will desire, respectively, as a result, no matter the specifics.

Obviously israel wants to keep its land. that doesn't mean it is not allowed or justified to and it doesn't mean it aspire to extend what it has now on the expense of the palestines. on the contrary, israel have already shown it is more than willing to depart from land in exchange for peace. land that is bigger than entire israel.

And let me remind you that it was the surrounding arab countries and the palestines that initiated an attack on israel, despite getting the far more worthwhile lands in 1948 and the ability to completely divide the israeli state.

[Angle]

All of Palestine? then why Israel gave back the Gaza strip? and why would Israel want to govern the Palestinians?

lets assume that no matter what, Palestinians will remain peaceful. under their government or ours, doesn't matter.
Why would Israel wish to have them under our government and force to pay welfare to such a large uneducated mass? the Israeli Arabs already takes 58% of our social security payments while providing ~5% of the taxes, so why would Israel wish to extend it even further?

I am afraid that this narrative is "slightly" wrong. Israel has nothing to do in the west bank/Gaza, EXCEPT use it as a buffer to try and prevent terror attacks against Israeli citizens.

Israel gave back the Gaza strip as a temporary placating measure. They don't want to govern the Palestinians. They want to drive them out of the area entirely. It's the same strategy the European settles used to gain control of north America.

[GavJ]

SOME israelis are willing to give up land in exchange for peace. The same goes for SOME palestinians. They're all internally mixed.

By poll, both groups have minorities that call for secularly controlled coexistence, minorities that call for total respective domination, and majorities that call for two-state solutions.

1) Because it doesn't do that in regarding to israeli figures. in israel, every soldier is officially regarded as a military casualty, even if he died while on vacation.

Alright, so if you adjust down the israeli figures accordingly, you get even grayer results, yes? Instead of 69%, it might be 59% both ways, or 59/49, or who knows? Doesn't help much to provide useful numbers for drawing conclusions from my perspective.

[burningpet]

SOME israelis are willing to give up land in exchange for peace. The same goes for SOME palestinians. They're all internally mixed.

By poll, both groups have minorities that call for secularly controlled coexistence, minorities that call for total respective domination, and majorities that call for two-state solutions.

1) Because it doesn't do that in regarding to israeli figures. in israel, every soldier is officially regarded as a military casualty, even if he died while on vacation.

Alright, so if you adjust down the israeli figures accordingly, you get even grayer results, yes? Instead of 69%, it might be 59% both ways, or 59/49, or who knows? Doesn't help much to provide useful numbers for drawing conclusions from my perspective.

Yeah, the "small" difference is that in israel, being a democratic state, the majority opinion is the decisive one and such a decision legally encompass every citizen, whereas in Gaza, a dictatorship, the minority decides for the rest and even then, other minorities can do what the hell they wish to do.

No, the israeli numbers are exact. you don't need to adjust anything in regard to them. even we see an israeli soldier that died in a terror attack while on vacation as a military casualty.
And the numbers would not be 69/49. it was estimated that around ~70% of the betzelem reported civilian casualties are actually combatants.

I must say though, those numbers are no longer relevant since Palestines have a much harder time hitting our civilians in recent years. not that they don't intentionally still trying to.

[Sheb]

So apparently the first IDF casualty of the war was due to friendly fire. For a short while, the IDF and Hamas were tied for number of killed Israeli. Now, another Israeli civilian died, as well as a couple soldiers and about 100 Palestinians. War is hell.

[GavJ]

My point was merely that 50% plus or minus 10-20% either way is not impressive as the basis of any strong argument. If it were 90/5 or 80/10 or something, then okay. As is, detail quibbling aside, it's "everyone is killing a ton of civilians both" and I see little or no reason to devote sympathy on this basis.

Existing differences seem well within margins of error/uniqueness given different weapon types and population characteristics etc. With no strong evidence here of anybody necessarily trying much harder to avoid civilians.

[burningpet]

My point was merely that 50% plus or minus 10-20% either way is not impressive as the basis of any strong argument. If it were 90/5 or 80/10 or something, then okay. As is, detail quibbling aside, it's "everyone is killing a ton of civilians both" and I see little or no reason to devote sympathy on this basis.

Existing differences seem well within margins of error/uniqueness given different weapon types and population characteristics etc. With no strong evidence here of anybody necessarily trying much harder to avoid civilians.

There is no either way since the israeli numbers are exact. you don't give or take percentages from the numbers in the israeli side, you reduce the numbers in the palestine side because not only they were proven skewed, they are evidently skewed by seeing the percentage of female casualties. you don't need a source, you just need common sense.

If its 70/30 and even 70/20, then yes, it is a pretty big difference and the skewed numbers debunking suggest those were the numbers before israel managed to protect itself against the brutalities against its civilians.

And you are conveniently overlooking the fact IDF tries to avoid hitting civilians (spreading leaflets, warning by phone calls, sms, breakthroughs into the gazan television) while hamas does everything within its power to try hitting ones.

[Darvi]

you don't need a source, you just need common sense.

That hurt my brain.

[burningpet]

you don't need a source, you just need common sense.

That hurt my brain.

I know, requiring common sense sometimes does that to people

Isis just blew an 1800 years old church, in the name of the religion of peace.
http://slabnews.com/article/91968

Egypt stops an aid convoy to gaza because it fears it cannot protect it from hamas
http://slabnews.com/article/92077/%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%B1-%D8%AA%D9%85%D9%86%D8%B9-%D9%88%D8%B5%D9%88%D9%84-%D9%82%D8%A7%D9%81%D9%84%D8%A9-%D9%85%D8%B3%D8%A7%D8%B9%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D9%84%D9%82%D8%B7%D8%A7%D8%B9-%D8%BA%D8%B2%D8%A9-%D9%84%D9%80-%D8%A3%D8%B3%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%A8-%D8%A3%D9%85%D9%86%D9%8A%D8%A9

More than 25 egyptians border guards were killed in egypt, in the name of religion of peace.
http://slabnews.com/article/92079/%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%B1-%D9%85%D9%82%D8%AA%D9%84-%D9%88%D8%AC%D8%B1%D8%AD-25-%D9%85%D9%86-%D8%AD%D8%B1%D8%B3-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D8%AF%D9%88%D8%AF-%D9%81%D9%8A-%D9%87%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%85-%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%84%D8%AD%D9%8A%D9%86-%D9%82%D8%B1%D8%A8-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D8%AF%D9%88%D8%AF-%D9%85%D8%B9-%D9%84%D9%8A%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%A7-%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%88%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%86

[Sheb]

Also, I've seen report of the IDF sending sms and then not bombing. Palestinians are claiming they do that to stress the fuck out of the Palestinians, although it could just be that the artillerymen changed their mind.