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[scriver]

Except that israel does so to defend its own civilians, while they do so to enforce their ideology. all hail the small differences that makes life such a complicated affair.

This is like saying that in Ireland the English "fought to defend their citizens" while the IRA fought "to enforce their ideology". If you think that taking that position means viewing this as a complicated conflict, then you're just wrong.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

IRA used Irishmen as meat shields. Noted

[Angle]

I'm not contradicting myself. There are two different discussions taking place simultaneously here. One is about Israel/Palestine, the other is about westerners going overseas to wage Jihad.

ISIS and Al Qaeda are not who we're discussing. we're discussing Hamas. Hamas is attempting to further the interests of the Palestinian people, at least in part. There's also a lot of politicking and furthering of individual interests, but that's par for the course in these matters. The leadership of Israel is doing much he same thing in dragging the whole affair out.

[XXSockXX]

But the fundamental reason they're fighting is because the Israeli's have blatantly stolen their land and packed them into an open air prison, and are in the process of stealing more of their land.

I don't know how you can make such an argument. Israel has been giving up land in the recent decades, not gaining it. If you want to argue that the foundation of Israel was a mistake historically, fine, but would you deny their right to existence now?
As Helgoland pointed out earlier in the thread, do I as a German with family ties to refugees from what is now Poland have the right to go there and kill people (who BTW are often descended from refugees from farther East themselves)? Should descendents of Europeans hand the Americas back to the Natives? I mean they have a lot less of a claim to that land than the Jews who lived in Israel since thousands of years.
I don't think all anti-zionism is necessarily anti-semitism, but often it is a thin line.

[LordSlowpoke]

anti-semitism is a bit of a flawed term, by the by

you know jews being a mixed bag that is actually only in a tiny bit semitic

when i first heard the term i thought somebody wanted to kill random syrians or whatev

[XXSockXX]

anti-semitism is a bit of a flawed term, by the by

you know jews being a mixed bag that is actually only in a tiny bit semitic

when i first heard the term i thought somebody wanted to kill random syrians or whatev

It is a very flawed term, but it is the term that is commonly used. Anti-Judaism might be better, since it doesn't refer to all people speaking semitic languages, but I think most people should understand what anti-semitic normally means.

[Angle]

I was referring to the illegal settlement in the west bank. The rest of it I'd just let them keep.

[burningpet]

This is like saying that in Ireland the English "fought to defend their citizens" while the IRA fought "to enforce their ideology". If you think that taking that position means viewing this as a complicated conflict, then you're just wrong.

I admit to not have extensive knowledge of the IRA and the british, so i can't reply to that, although, i am pretty sure the IRA never wanted to take ALL england.

Regardless, what i meant is that since there are different motives for fighting, it makes life slightly more complicated than - fighters are evil!11!1.

And a country that must defend itself against a religious ideology that base itself around the aspiration to eradicate that country and place a corrupted, tyrannic, religious, dictatorship instead, has far more legitimacy than that religious ideology. and make no mistake, this is Hamas, this is the Islamic Jihad, this is ISIS, this is Al qaeda.

And they are already inside europe and have already began aspiring for a caliphate in europe and if you think that's just islamophobia or fear mongering, i have sad news for you, its a well documented reality.

And that's why restricting radical islamists from reaching Syria/Iraq/Yemen/Libya is so important. because the problem is not what happens when they are there, it what will happen when they come back fully trained and battle experienced. and we have already seen glimpses of it in paris and brussels.

I'm not contradicting myself. There are two different discussions taking place simultaneously here. One is about Israel/Palestine, the other is about westerners going overseas to wage Jihad.

ISIS and Al Qaeda are not who we're discussing. we're discussing Hamas. Hamas is attempting to further the interests of the Palestinian people, at least in part. There's also a lot of politicking and furthering of individual interests, but that's par for the course in these matters. The leadership of Israel is doing much he same thing in dragging the whole affair out.

You were replying about my remark concering the "westerners" that going overseas to wage jihad.

And please, hamas is not attempting to further the interests of the palestinian people. it is only concerned in keeping its political power and establishing a caliphate on the entirety of israel.

anti-semitism is a bit of a flawed term, by the by

you know jews being a mixed bag that is actually only in a tiny bit semitic

when i first heard the term i thought somebody wanted to kill random syrians or whatev

While it is indeed a flawed term, its popular usage meaning is well established.

[Angle]

You were replying about my remark concerning the "westerners" that going overseas to wage jihad.

Yes? I was having both arguments in parallel.

And please, Hamas is not attempting to further the interests of the Palestinian people. it is only concerned in keeping its political power and establishing a caliphate on the entirety of Israel.

Well, yes, but it thinks that's in the best interest of the Palestinian people. More importantly, the Palestinian people support Hamas because they think it acts in their best interests.

[burningpet]

Yeah well, hamas also thinks that it's in YOUR best interest to convert to islam, so? and the palestinian people support hamas because they live in terror. just like north koreans support their twisted leader.

[Angle]

I've seen no evidence to suggest that Hamas terrorizes the Palestinians.

Edit: Alright, there's a plenty of evidence that they suppress journalists that criticize them. I don't see anything that suggests they only have the Palestinian support because of that, however.

[burningpet]

Journalists they suppress, palestines they simply kill.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Hamas literally makes a point to try to force Israel to kill as many Palestinian citizens as possible. You don't see that as terrorizing?

[Angle]

I don't think you can blame that entirely on Hamas. Yes, they are interested in perpetuating the conflict for their own gain, but so is Israel. And Israel is perfectly willing to play along with that script.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The argument is not that Israel is perfectly good here, but that Hamas is forcing non-combatants into a position where they will be killed to make a political point against Israel. How would you like it if your government's military forced you to be a meatshield?