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[Sheb]

Can you stop ignoring three quarters of the points Leafsnail is making? Like the whole West Bank situation?

Seriously, I find it amazing how closely you follow the way to make arguments recommended in that guide for Israeli facing the media I posted to earlier. I'm actually starting to wonder if you had training, since the Ministry for Information actually provide PR training for Israeli traveling abroad and I know you did travel abroad.

[Sergarr]

obv he does he's a soldier of Israel he can't possibly have his personal opinion on these matters

[Sheb]

Is he? He was drafted back, but my understanding was that he was just a regular guy that had to do military service like every other Israeli. If Israeli soldiers can't have their opinion, that would mean mind control of the whole adult population. :p

I also didn't mean training in what to think, but in how to make the argument. Or it could just be that he picked it up simply from being in Israel.


Edit: Chile suspend trade talks with Israel, consider recalling its ambassador in protest over the Gaza bombings.

[10ebbor10]

On another note, the iran nuclear talks were extended.

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKBN0FN2MY20140719?irpc=932

[burningpet]

obv he does he's a soldier of Israel he can't possibly have his personal opinion on these matters

I am not just a soldier, i am a murderous beast that eats children for breakfast and drink their blood.

Can you stop ignoring three quarters of the points Leafsnail is making? Like the whole West Bank situation?

Seriously, I find it amazing how closely you follow the way to make arguments recommended in that guide for Israeli facing the media I posted to earlier. I'm actually starting to wonder if you had training, since the Ministry for Information actually provide PR training for Israeli traveling abroad and I know you did travel abroad.

Excuse me?!

First, not to offend anyone, but three-quarter of the arguments here are based on nothing but wishful thinking and baseless arguments that refuse to look reality or history in the eyes and are extremely one sided and biased.

I have given my opinions regarding the west bank multiple times now! I said, explicitely and multiple times now, that i condemn the settlements and would love to see a total removal from the west bank back to '67 lines and that most other israelis would also approve it if somehow the palestinians could have promised us peace in exchange for that but since there is NO unified palestinian leadership such promises would be futile, as history shown repeatedly. remaining in the settlements and maintaining the checkpoints are a vital protective measure that evidence shows manage to reduce suicide bombings and other anti-civilian terror attacks. i am also not naive enough to think the settlements are the cause of terror and hostility toward israel as evidence shown throughout gaza and the historic timelines that radical elements in both the west bank and gaza are hostile to israel REGARDLESS of its actions and not because of it.

Such is the case when your enemy is a religious terror cult that aspire to form a "caliphate that shall rule all israel".

And that PR training is pure military nonsense that no one takes seriously. you are awfully unfamiliar with the israeli way of thinking.

Israelis are showing opinions and figure of speeches from the entire political spectrum including ones that openly maintains israelis should completely withdraw from israel and return to europe, as opposed to palestines in gaza that would get shot on the spot if they even dare suggest anything that is not following hamas guidelines. and not only in the west bank or gaza. an israeli arab, cousin of Hanin zoabi, that dared express his opinion that kidnapping the three kids was a terror operation, was almost kidnapped himself only to be rescued by the israeli police.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

PTW

[Leafsnail]

I have given my opinions regarding the west bank multiple times now! I said, explicitely and multiple times now, that i condemn the settlements and would love to see a total removal from the west bank back to '67 lines and that most other israelis would also approve it if somehow the palestinians could have promised us peace in exchange for that but since there is NO unified palestinian leadership such promises would be futile, as history shown repeatedly. remaining in the settlements and maintaining the checkpoints are a vital protective measure that evidence shows manage to reduce suicide bombings and other anti-civilian terror attacks. i am also not naive enough to think the settlements are the cause of terror and hostility toward israel as evidence shown throughout gaza and the historic timelines that radical elements in both the west bank and gaza are hostile to israel REGARDLESS of its actions and not because of it.

Such is the case when your enemy is a religious terror cult that aspire to form a "caliphate that shall rule all israel".

So you condemn the settlements and think they shouldn't exist, but you also state that they are a "vital protective measure" that are necessary to prevent terrorist attacks (I'd like you to explain how they do this, by the way).  Which are they?  You seem to be mixing up your talking points.

In addition, let's have a little hypothetical.  If I demolished your house so that I could build my own on top of it would you be annoyed?  If I systematically did this to people in your community would you be annoyed (you'd have a right to be, considering it's a completely unambiguous war crime)?  Why on earth do you think that Palestinians wouldn't be?  The argument that evidence shows Palestinians would be hostile regardless makes no sense, considering that Israel has been creating and expanding these settlements for decades without a break.

Lastly, I'd like to point out that there is now a unified government of Gaza - it's made up of both Hamas and Fatah.

[XXSockXX]

Lastly, I'd like to point out that there is now a unified government of Gaza - it's made up of both Hamas and Fatah.

AFAIK not, there was supposed to be, but last I heard Hamas refuses to pay Fatah civil servants and so is effectively still in control alone.

--------------------

It's a bit meh in terms of journalistic quality, but here is an interactive friendship chart for various factions involved in the current Middle Eastern mess.
--------------------

While the world is looking at Gaza, ISIS has captured a natural gas field near Homs and killed about 270 people there.

In German media there is a video circulating, showing a man posing between dozens of corpses and bragging in Arabic and broken German. Up to 3000 extremists from Europe are estimated to have joined the fight for the Islamic State.

[10ebbor10]

The article talks about a natural gas field, with no mention of it being near homs.

[Owlbread]

In German media there is a video circulating, showing a man posing between dozens of corpses and bragging in Arabic and broken German. Up to 3000 extremists from Europe are estimated to have joined the fight for the Islamic State.

I don't think we should stop them. As much as I disagree with their cause I don't think our governments should have the right to prevent us from joining civil conflicts elsewhere to fight. If our governments had that right in the 1930s our leftists could not have supported the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War.

[XXSockXX]

The article talks about a natural gas field, with no mention of it being near homs.

Yes, my bad, I wrote "oil" when I meant "gas", I'm going to correct that.

The article mentions "the Sha'ar gas field east of Homs in central Syria", which had been captured earlier this week, and I think that the killing of the 270 people happened there, that's what it sounds like in other articles too, like here for example.

I don't think we should stop them. As much as I disagree with their cause I don't think our governments should have the right to prevent us from joining civil conflicts elsewhere to fight. If our governments had that right in the 1930s our leftists could not have supported the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War.

I don't know, if one was cynical, one could say good riddance, let them die there. On the other hand they are committing crime upon crime there, so it does not help stability in the region at all if we let them go. AFAIK France has already introduced some measures to try and stop islamic extremists from leaving the country.

[Owlbread]

I don't know, if one was cynical, one could say good riddance, let them die there. On the other hand they are committing crime upon crime there, so it does not help stability in the region at all if we let them go. AFAIK France has already introduced some measures to try and stop islamic extremists from leaving the country.

They are committing crime upon crime but I don't think it should be the right of our governments to decide where we go and fight. It's not about helping the region in that sense it's about liberty. If on their return home there is evidence to show they committed war crimes they should of course be brought to justice and charged.

[Dutchling]

Seems like this is more of a secret service (-equivalent) thing. Once they come back, that is.

[XXSockXX]

They are committing crime upon crime but I don't think it should be the right of our governments to decide where we go and fight. It's not about helping the region in that sense it's about liberty. If on their return home there is evidence to show they committed war crimes they should of course be brought to justice and charged.

I don't think that is quite right. We know they go there with the intent to kill, so it's not about liberty really. You wouldn't knowingly let a terrorist go, just because he wants to be a terrorist in another country.
Also they might pick up skills there they might later use for terroristic acts here, like (IIRC) the guy who killed those people at the Jewish Museum in Brussels.

[Owlbread]

I don't think that is quite right. We know they go there with the intent to kill, so it's not about liberty really. You wouldn't knowingly let a terrorist go, just because he wants to be a terrorist in another country.

It's difficult because I never use the word "terrorist" due to how subjective it is. Is every person in ISIS right now a terrorist?

Also they might pick up skills there they might later use for terroristic acts here, like (IIRC) the guy who killed those people at the Jewish Museum in Brussels.

If there is reason to be suspicious that they may become a threat upon their return home, they should be monitored carefully. I understand resources could be stretched by this but it depends on the country and how many volunteers have left. 

In other news:

Scotland is ready to accept Palestinian refugees. The Scottish government also called for an end to the conflict (cessation of all violence); condemning both the Hamas rocket attacks and the Israeli ground offensive:

“The start of a ground offensive is a serious and worrying development. The lives lost in this conflict are individual human tragedies and the killing of innocent civilians, be they Palestinian or Israeli, is to be utterly condemned. The rocket attacks on Israel are unacceptable and should stop, as should the Israeli offensive in Gaza, which is heavily disproportionate, as demonstrated by the mounting civilian death toll.

They also called for an end to the blockade on Gaza by Israel as it is "exacerbating the suffering experienced by the people there and tantamount to collective punishment."

Contrast that with the response of the British government.