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[burningpet]

Hamas isn't the one killing civilians right at this moment, so I don't see how my opinion on them is actually relevant? Hamas isn't the one that shelled those kids, it's not the one shelling civilian areas right now.

Do you condemn what Israel is doing right now? If we're in agreement on that, and thus there's nothing more go be gained by discussing it, sure, we can go into Hamas for a bit (although the running invasion seems like a bit more of a priority)

Oh no? really? so hamas does nothing? no rockets on civlians? how can anyone take you seriously with those claims?

I condemn the killing of innocent civilians by israel, so? does that make israeli civilians safe against hamas rockets? does that make this whole operation unjustified? does this imply israel intentionally tries to kill innocent civlians?

[GlyphGryph]

Reading comprehension - do you have it? Try again, without the flailing at strawmen.

Do you condemn the shelling of civilians, yes/no? Do you deny that Israel is shelling civilians, yes/no? Do you think it is okay for Israel to kill these civilians, yes/no?

[burningpet]

Again. do you deny hamas is targeting israeli civilians? yes/no. do you deny hamas is hiding among civilians? yes/no. do you agree israel has the right to defend its civilians? yes/no.

I deny israel is intentionally shelling innocent civilians.

[GlyphGryph]

(removed)

I'm going to get banned from Bay12 if I attempt to continue this conversation, so I'm out.

[burningpet]

But i do suffer under that bullshit! i got shelled too! i saw israeli kids getting mutilated too! stop trying to make this a one sided affair.

[Leafsnail]

Oh no, you made a mistake here. i regard palestinians as human beings, its hamas that sees them as a vehicle for propaganda and shields for its operatives.

If you regard Palestinians as human beings then why do you think that a status quo that results in the systematic malnutrition of the Gazan population and regular airstrikes that actually do kill dozens of children every other year, sometimes deliberately (as we have now all seen) is "quite good for israel"?  Isn't the growing humanitarian crisis in Gaza enough for you to see that it isn't?  Isn't the fact that Hamas remains resurgent and well-armed evidence that the Israeli policies are not working, assuming that what Israel actually wants is peace?

So.. you still didn't read hamas charter?

Indeed, this is a good counterpoint to your charter argument.  Yes, their charter has some very extremist views that are obviously unacceptable.  But it's clear from this proposal that they're prepared to compromise in order to reach peace.  It should at the very least be enough to convince the Israeli side that it's worth starting genuine negotiations.

Or do you think that the demands, most of which amount to "start following international law and let us be an actual nation", are so entirely unreasonable that no common ground could ever be found?

I deny israel is intentionally shelling innocent civilians.

So, and this is at least the third time I've asked you this: how do you explain the beach incident?  What exactly went wrong?  How did an Israeli ship fire not just one but two shots at a group of children, having adjusted its aim between those two?

[nenjin]

I can see where, in the heat of the moment, with sketchy to non-existent intel and a mandate to commit violence against anyone suspected of launching rockets.....it was an extremely poor day to be a group of more than 1 person gathered together in Gaza where an Israeli soldier could see you. (Although IIRC, the beach incident was Israeli return-fire, and they claimed there was a mortar-site somewhere on the beach, while the Israeli boat opened fire on homes along the waterfront.)

That doesn't excuse it, that's not blaming the victim. That's just the reality of armed conflict. It's stupid, senseless, and the people who refuse to allow the situation to change rarely have to pay the price for their stance. It is everyone else who bears the burden. Both sides keep saying their primary goal is the cessation of hostilities, but their military wings as usual have their own goals. Hamas has zero chance of ever eradicating Israeli military capacity to attack them, so their goals are entirely reprisal-based. Israel, while also craving reprisal, does have the more achievable goal of eliminating launch sites. The lack of precision is probably a combination of "it's the safest way for our people to attack" and "I don't give a fuck what happens to Palestinians." Peppering Gaza with leaflets telling people to evacuate their homes is essentially saying "I'm walking forward, and I'm going to swing my fists, and if you're still in my way, it's your fault." So while Israel might not be deliberately targeting civilians, they've sent the message they don't really feel all that responsible for the collateral damage they're causing.

I've never really been able to take the PLO at face value either, because they historically seem to have no control over Hamas, or like Sinn Fein and the IRA of old, the political wing is still ultimately a legitimacy cover for the militant wing and not an independent force for peace. And even if they were, the PLO would basically have to disarm Hamas for any hope of real cessation to hostilities. And even if they did, there'd still be 'cowboys', to use an American term, firing rockets independent of any organization, or other organizations moving in to take up where Hamas left off, and Israel would do what it normally does: retaliate back. It is nearly impossible to break the cycle of violence because both sides are so willing to perpetuate it.

No political situation in the world makes me more depressed than the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, because both sides are so deeply entrenched and, when they're not in open conflict, they're antagonizing each other in different ways, with the settlement accords or lack thereof, gate crossing incidents....It's like trying to build a house of cards in the middle of an active game of pool. Every time you get somewhere, someone comes out of left field and knocks the shit down again, because its foundations, the foundations of peace and co-existence, are not strong.

I can't decide if I'm glad or not that Israel is moving in ground troops. The civilian causalities will be very high, probably higher than the whole bombing campaign. But at least it will, hopefully, be somewhat less indiscriminate.

[Leafsnail]

By the way an air strike yesterday killed three more children, in the latest in a very long string of isolated incidents.
https://news.vice.com/video/this-just-in-more-children-killed-in-latest-israel-strike?utm_source=vicenewsfb

The lack of precision is probably a combination of "it's the safest way for our people to attack" and "I don't give a fuck what happens to Palestinians." Peppering Gaza with leaflets telling people to evacuate their homes is essentially saying "I'm walking forward, and I'm going to swing my fists, and if you're still in my way, it's your fault." So while Israel might not be deliberately targeting civilians, they've sent the message they don't really feel all that responsible for the collateral damage they're causing.

So you agree that Israel is performing war crimes, and that it should face massive sanctions from the international community?  Equating them to Hamas (widely recognized as a terrorist organization) isn't really helpful, because Israel is expected to act as a functional industrialised state.

I can't decide if I'm glad or not that Israel is moving in ground troops. The civilian causalities will be very high, probably higher than the whole bombing campaign. But at least it will, hopefully, be somewhat indiscriminate.

What?

[nenjin]

Yep, sorry, edited.

The lack of precision is probably a combination of "it's the safest way for our people to attack" and "I don't give a fuck what happens to Palestinians." Peppering Gaza with leaflets telling people to evacuate their homes is essentially saying "I'm walking forward, and I'm going to swing my fists, and if you're still in my way, it's your fault." So while Israel might not be deliberately targeting civilians, they've sent the message they don't really feel all that responsible for the collateral damage they're causing.

So you agree that Israel is performing war crimes, and that it should face massive sanctions from the international community?  Equating them to Hamas (widely recognized as a terrorist organization) isn't really helpful, because Israel is expected to act as a functional industrialised state.

It is has been argued that during war, there is no such thing as a war crime. It doesn't hold in the international community, but the international community isn't there being shot at, watching friends and countrymen die and holding a gun and the power to do something with it.

Do I think they should face sanctions? Sure. But then so should the US for the many killed in Pakistan by our drone strikes who were not terrorists or members of Al-Qaeda. We should face war crimes for the civilians killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The point I'm trying to make is, you cannot look to the past. At some point someone just has to say "Enough" and mean it. And neither side will do that, because neither side believes the other will actually stop. No one is willing to halt their attacks and suffer the enemy's because they simply are no longer willing to commit to the cycle of violence. And....should they? I can't answer that. My people aren't dying. When they were America's wars, I wanted them to stop. And even that came with a price (see: ISIS and Iraq right now.) But as a stupid American with a government who will not sanction Israel, looking in from the outside, that's the only way it can stop. Is for either side to be tired of having blood on their hands, for whatever reason. I don't see Hamas ever doing that. And I don't see the current political leadership or security situation in Israel allowing for it.

[XXSockXX]

I've never really been able to take the PLO at face value either, because they historically seem to have no control over Hamas, or like Sinn Fein and the IRA of old, the political wing is still ultimately a legitimacy cover for the militant wing and not an independent force for peace. And even if they were, the PLO would basically have to disarm Hamas for any hope of real cessation to hostilities. And even if they did, there'd still be 'cowboys', to use an American term, firing rockets independent of any organization, or other organizations moving in to take up where Hamas left off, and Israel would do what it normally does: retaliate back. It is nearly impossible to break the cycle of violence because both sides are so willing to perpetuate it.

Actually it's a bit different, Hamas are religious fanatics, PLO is more nationalist and used to be alligned with various socialist groups in Europe. Fatah is the strongest faction within PLO, that currently governs the West Bank. Hamas and Fatah used to fight, and Hamas violently kicked Fatah out of Gaza. Now Fatah was supposed to assume government in Gaza again, but Hamas didn't let them.
Hamas is basically the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood (the last truce was negotiated by now deposed Egyptian President Mursi, of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood). The Hamas is not the military arm of PLO, but they are different organisations fighting each other.

[nenjin]

Hamas is basically the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood (the last truce was negotiated by now deposed Egyptian President Mursi, of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood). The Hamas is not the military arm of PLO, but they are different organisations fighting each other.

Thanks for the correction. As long as you can't control Hamas, you have no real chance of stopping the violence.

[XXSockXX]

Hamas is basically the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood (the last truce was negotiated by now deposed Egyptian President Mursi, of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood). The Hamas is not the military arm of PLO, but they are different organisations fighting each other.

Thanks for the correction. As long as you can't control Hamas, you have no real chance of stopping the violence.

That is basically the problem. PLO was at times a terrorist organization, but then they were willing to compromise. Remember in 1993, when Arafat and Rabin signed the Oslo Accords? I think there was even a celebration in Camp David. That didn't last too long either...
But it is much more difficult to negotiate with religious fanatics like Hamas, Egypt has some influence on them (though not as much as when the Muslim Brotherhood still ruled), but PLO's influence is very limited, often non-existent due to fighting.

[burningpet]

I can't decide if I'm glad or not that Israel is moving in ground troops. The civilian causalities will be very high, probably higher than the whole bombing campaign. But at least it will, hopefully, be somewhat less indiscriminate.

Actually, what i fear is that when dealing with ground forces, things tend to be a lot more hectic and soldiers on the ground don't have those split seconds to have a second glance whether their target is a civilian or a terrorist. obviously, sometimes also pilots and gunboat gunners fail that too, but i fear ground forces are far more likely to make those tragic mistakes. also, since ground forces are far less secured, i fear they will be far more "jumpy".

In operation "Cast led" almost half of the israeli casualties were from friendly fire, precisely because a ground invasion is far more messy.

So a ground invasion is definitely an escalation to the worse from every perspective.

[smjjames]

Plus you're adding into the mix the complexities and bloodyness of urban warfare, sure the Israelis have experience with it, but it doesn't make it any less bloody for both sides.

[nenjin]

In operation "Cast led" almost half of the israeli casualties were from friendly fire, precisely because a ground invasion is far more messy.

That figure kind of tracks with some long-term American casualty reports from Iraq/Afghanistan IIRC. And while this is going to sound crass....I honestly feel better about soldiers dying to their own friendly fire than civilians and children dying. It's all totally pointless, but friendly fire tends to underscore just how pointless. One can only hope Hamas decides to cut its losses and disperse for the time being, instead of a fighting retreat or sustained guerrilla warfare.