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[burningpet]

Yes. the ground invasion has began. at the first stage, it will mainly involve finding and demolishing offensive tunnels.

[Zangi]

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=713579

Those demands say nothing about preventing hamas from arming itself for a larger escalation in 10 years from now, nor do they say anything about abandoning the tunnel operation. do you think israel should just let hamas freely arm itself for a future escalation?

If you can't create a lasting peace deal during or after a ten year ceasefire with no blockade then the situation really is fucked beyond repair.  Also if the bloackade is lifted there'd be no real need for tunnels.

I don't particularly see why Hamas shouldn't arm itself during that period though, unless you're proposing that Israel also stops training soldiers and buying weapons during that time-frame.

I agree with Leafsnail's sentiment.

Those are pretty damned extremely reasonable demands in my opinion...   
It may be that the current Hamas would fall apart or drastically change into a more moderate one once Israel stops forcing the Palastinians into the corner.
With Palastines borders opening up and industry/trade happening, the people of Palastine will have more to lose if they go to war again.  Do you really think the general populace will want to go back to what is happening now after experiencing such a revitalization?

Of course... you focus on this like the general populace will continue supporting Hamas as it does now... As if nothing is going to change once the demands are met and after the 10 year ceasefire.
If as Leafsnail states... if no long lasting peace can be made... something is very wrong.  And someone is probably during their durn bestest to sabotage the whole thing. 

My opinion... with how Israel is in their dealings with Palastine throughout history. (If you cut past the Propaganda bullshit they have been trying to front for the past decade or so...)  They'd be the ones to make it fail.... and say "See?! We tried it the peaceful way! It doesn't work!!"

Anyways, give another decade or so and the West Bank would defacto belong to Israel sovereignty.  They'll hold out until then.

[burningpet]

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=713579

Those demands say nothing about preventing hamas from arming itself for a larger escalation in 10 years from now, nor do they say anything about abandoning the tunnel operation. do you think israel should just let hamas freely arm itself for a future escalation?

If you can't create a lasting peace deal during or after a ten year ceasefire with no blockade then the situation really is fucked beyond repair.  Also if the bloackade is lifted there'd be no real need for tunnels.

I don't particularly see why Hamas shouldn't arm itself during that period though, unless you're proposing that Israel also stops training soldiers and buying weapons during that time-frame.

I agree with Leafsnail's sentiment.

Those are pretty damned extremely reasonable demands in my opinion...   
It may be that the current Hamas would fall apart or drastically change into a more moderate one once Israel stops forcing the Palastinians into the corner.
With Palastines borders opening up and industry/trade happening, the people of Palastine will have more to lose if they go to war again.  Do you really think the general populace will want to go back to what is happening now after experiencing such a revitalization?

Of course... you focus on this like the general populace will continue supporting Hamas as it does now... As if nothing is going to change once the demands are met and after the 10 year ceasefire.
If as Leafsnail states... if no long lasting peace can be made... something is very wrong.  And someone is probably during their durn bestest to sabotage the whole thing. 

My opinion... with how Israel is in their dealings with Palastine throughout history. (If you cut past the Propaganda bullshit they have been trying to front for the past decade or so...)  They'd be the ones to make it fail.... and say "See?! We tried it the peaceful way! It doesn't work!!"

Anyways, give another decade or so and the West Bank would defacto belong to Israel sovereignty.  They'll hold out until then.

So.. you still didn't read hamas charter?

[GlyphGryph]

The first stage of the invasion so far seems more along the lines of "indiscriminate murder of civilians" than "find and demolish tunnels", but hey. Maybe they are just keeping that part secret?

Especially since the Israeli spokespeople say they'll be hitting targets throughout Gaza, not just along the border... what do you think the rest of the stages will entail?

[burningpet]

The first stage of the invasion so far seems more along the lines of "indiscriminate murder of civilians" than "find and demolish tunnels", but hey. Maybe they are just keeping that part secret?

Seems because you are there? no? didn't think so

[GlyphGryph]

Judging by the feeds and streams and videos and all the dead civilians on them, mostly.

I was talking with people who WERE there, but they've been evacuated mostly now, so I'm going mostly off the other stuff now.

Mind you, no evidence that this is from the the "ground forces" which I haven't actually seen anything from, it's mostly from the intense shelling it seems.

[burningpet]

Oh, they got time to evacuate? i wonder why hamas didn't let his own citizens also evacuate to the places that israel designated as safe.

[palsch]

Judging by the feeds and streams and videos and all the dead civilians on them, mostly.

I was talking with people who WERE there, but they've been evacuated mostly now, so I'm going mostly off the other stuff now.

Mind you, no evidence that this is from the the "ground forces" which I haven't actually seen anything from, it's mostly from the intense shelling it seems.

The assault is half an hour old and the main photo I've seen widely tweeted was from 2012...

[burningpet]

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4545599,00.html

Egypt:
"Hamas is to blame for the live of dozens. it could have prevented this if it had agreed to the cease fire israel already accepted"

"Turkey-Qatar are to blame for trying to influence regional affair".

[burningpet]

Could be that hamas is just a tool by Qatar who already shown extreme interests in becoming a leading regional power?

[GlyphGryph]

Oh, they got time to evacuate? i wonder why hamas didn't let his own citizens also evacuate to the places that israel designated as safe.

Are you seriously okay with what's going down here? You're seriously cool with innocent people dying in droves just because you're fucking side is doing the killing?

I hope to hell that this doesn't turn out as bad as it looks like it's going to be.

The assault is half an hour old and the main photo I've seen widely tweeted was from 2012...

There's plenty of stuff coming out already, though. Fox has already come out with some videos and images, although I suppose they could be faking them? Although they've jumped back to the Ukranian plane thing now.

Mind you, that's probably because it's the middle of the night and there's not a whole lot to see yet.

[palsch]

There's plenty of stuff coming out already, though. Fox has already come out with some videos and images, although I suppose they could be faking them? Although they've jumped back to the Ukranian plane thing now.

BBC has been showing a live stream of Gaza city between MH17 updates. It doesn't look much like many of the photos I've been seeing on Twitter. I've seen what look like two (possible) air or artillery strikes and a number of flairs that have revealed smoke plumes (not clear how many or how widespread), but nothing like the "Gaza on fire" images being shared already.

[GlyphGryph]

I've definitely seemed some outright not-from-this-attack photos, yeah. Some of them are from the shelling earlier though, like the video of the shelling that killed those beach kids playing soccer.

(Although I can't find that video anywhere now?)

[burningpet]

Oh, they got time to evacuate? i wonder why hamas didn't let his own citizens also evacuate to the places that israel designated as safe.

Are you seriously okay with what's going down here? You're seriously cool with innocent people dying in droves just because you're fucking side is doing the killing?

I hope to hell that this doesn't turn out as bad as it looks like it's going to be.

The assault is half an hour old and the main photo I've seen widely tweeted was from 2012...

There's plenty of stuff coming out already, though. Fox has already come out with some videos and images, although I suppose they could be faking them? Although they've jumped back to the Ukranian plane thing now.

Mind you, that's probably because it's the middle of the night and there's not a whole lot to see yet.

Of course i am not ok with civilians getting killed! i am also extremely not ok with israeli civilians getting targeted.

Are you seriously that one-sided? are you seriously refusing to see Hamas, a religious terror organization, part in this whole affair?

Edit: Breaking - Israel IAF have attacked a wing in Rafah hospital after evacuating the civilians in place. there are multiple secondary explosions typical for rockets and mortars that were stored there.

[GlyphGryph]

Hamas isn't the one killing civilians right at this moment, so I don't see how my opinion on them is actually relevant? Hamas isn't the one that shelled those kids, it's not the one shelling civilian areas right now.

Do you condemn what Israel is doing right now? If we're in agreement on that, and thus there's nothing more go be gained by discussing it, sure, we can go into Hamas for a bit (although the running invasion seems like a bit more of a priority)