Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[burningpet]

And thus they fire missiles at hospitals! Logic!

The only thing I can give them is that they told them to evacuate afterwards. The 'warning missiles' could still have easily gone and hit someone.

hospitals that house the entire hamas command center and shelter thousands of missiles, and no, we didnt tell them to evacuate afterwards, we sent them SMS and called them by phone.

[Loud Whispers]

hospitals that house the entire hamas command center and shelter thousands of missiles, and no, we didnt tell them to evacuate afterwards, we sent them SMS and called them by phone.

Yeah, and the Americans sent leaflets to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[burningpet]

hospitals that house the entire hamas command center and shelter thousands of missiles, and no, we didnt tell them to evacuate afterwards, we sent them SMS and called them by phone.

Yeah, and the Americans sent leaflets to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

True, we also sent leaflets hours before the attack.

[burningpet]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.605590

The UN finally "discovered" one of its UNRWA funded and maintained, now vacant, school housed 20 rockets ready to fire at israel.

The real crime here is that they dare hint this is the first time such a thing ever happened.

[Kogan Loloklam]

I would just like to say, Shame on Israel.
OF COURSE Hamas hides launching facilities in civilian occupied areas and next to hospitals and whatever other douchy ways they can.

And you know what, given the parental reaction to the deaths of those children, it's a pretty good bet them childrens were deliberately thrown in harms way by terroristic parents. So as cold as it is, I'm not thinking Israel is in the wrong for that...

However, WHAT THE HECK DO THEY THINK THEY ARE?!
Seriously.


Step back for a moment. Pretend you are a Police force. Pretend that you have some gang shoot up your police station.
Now, pretend for a moment that in retaliation, you go out to the neighborhood and shoot at houses you strongly suspect being occupied by gang members.

This is Israel and Palestine.
Israel is being attacked by terrorists. Terrorists backed by a provisional government supported by basically what amounts to Israel's slums, but still a terrorist organization.
What does a Terrorist Organization do? Why, they TERRORIZE of course.
What does a Government do? Govern.
Wow. I'm pretty good at this.
So, what is Israel? The cop shooting back at random houses.

[smjjames]

The terrorists ARE the government in Gaza though, and I'm not sure that is a completely good analogy because cops don't need to shoot at random houses. However, I get what you're trying to say, I think.

[burningpet]

The terrorists ARE the government in Gaza though, and I'm not sure that is a completely good analogy because cops don't need to shoot at random houses. However, I get what you're trying to say, I think.

And israel MOSTLY doesn't shoot at random houses. it either operate by a pre-existing list provided by intelligence or by live intelligence (rockets launches from that specific house, Drones that identify suspicious activity etc..). It DOES make mistakes though, but using those mistakes as an indication for intentional behaviour is ridiculous.

[Leafsnail]

I don't think those kids were meat shields for hamas, no,  this was not the case here. the case here is a tragic mistake that whoever responsible for it should be thrown behind bars and contrary to popular believes, israel does throw soldiers to jail for errors such as this one.

Can you please explain to me how exactly the beach incident could have happened by accident?  Did a particularly clumsy solider trip and accidentally press the fire button twice, adjusting the aim in the middle in a way that happened to track a group of fleeing kids?

I'd also point out that the IDF has blamed Hamas for these deaths, it has not in any way suggested that the incident was accidental.

The only option the world has to give gazan their freedom and prosperity, is to unconditionally support the demilitarizing of the entire gazan strip and rid it of hamas/ISIS/Islamic Jihad influence. hamas have already declined to demilitarize even a single crossing, so that option is a probably just a pipe dream.

Why on earth would they accept a demilitarization deal?  Don't they have a right to defend themselves?  Also, how would they police other extremist groups in the area if they were demilitarized?

The undeniable truth is that IDF goes out of its way to avoid hitting civilians while hamas goes out of its way to try and hitting them.

This is what the IDF says in its statements, yes.  Except we are increasingly seeing evidence that it is not at all true.  How can you say it's undeniable when the entire world has now seen them target fleeing children with a shell?  In addition, do you not think that the huge number of civilians killed by the IDF relative to the number killed by Hamas makes intent rather irrelevant?

I don't know why you assume they would do that on purpose. There are things like human error, ask the German officer who ordered an air strike on a fuel truck that killed over a hundred (IIRC) innocent people in Afghanistan. Of course prolonged warfare breeds hatred, cruelty and war crimes, but I don't think we have to assume this is always the case, particularly here where the Israeli army is very aware that they can't look like they're targeting civilians on purpose.

I assume that they were killed on purpose because we have video evidence and hundreds of reliable eye-witness statements to that effect.  Yes, maybe there is a chance of a staggering failure of intelligence (a failure so catastrophic and negligent that there would be little moral difference between it and a deliberate attack), but nobody has suggested a way in which that could actually happen.

There's also clearly a difference between accidentally misidentifying a truck and shooting at what are clearly fleeing children.

Hamas is not a separatist group. The situations don't compare. IRA and ETA didn't have a base they ruled, with civilians they could use as meatshields, and they didn't have the resources for a full out war. And as to legitimate claims, Hamas denies Israel's right to existence, it's not like they would be content with just an independent Palestine.
Maybe you could have a compromise solution with PLO, but not with Hamas.

IRA had plenty of strongholds and civilians friendly to their cause, and for a while they did indeed fight a full-out guerella campaign.

Hamas does indeed have some fiery rhetoric, but it's clear that the vast majority of their members would accept a reasonable agreement (note that the IRA disarmed in spite of the fact that its more unachievable demands were never met).  Yes, some Hamas extremists might continue to operate, but with the loss of support from the general population they would not be a serious threat, and they could be rounded up like criminals.  This is what history has taught us about separatist groups of this nature.

In addition, I'd point out that Hamas has actually released a list of 10 demands that, if met, would allow a 10-year ceasefire.  None of them are entirely unreasonable, and I think that if Israel were interested in lasting peace then they could probably negotiate something workable out of them.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=713579

hospitals that house the entire hamas command center and shelter thousands of missiles, and no, we didnt tell them to evacuate afterwards, we sent them SMS and called them by phone.

I love the idea that it's reasonable to expect a hospital to evacuate within like an hour.  It's a hospital.  It's full of sick people who can't move and medical equipment they need!

The claim that it was jam-packed with Hamas militants is also questionable, considering the number of international aid workers who could have seen them and didn't.

And israel MOSTLY doesn't shoot at random houses.

Oh, so Israel mostly doesn't just kill random civilians?  I'm satisfied!

[smjjames]

@leafsnail: Except Israel refuses to negotiate or even speak to Hamas (and by extension, listen to Hamas), and won't speak to anybody who negotiates with Hamas, I believe, not sure on the second part.

Not sure if a change in Israeli leadership would change that uncompromising position on things.

[Leafsnail]

I am aware that Israel refuses to negotiate with Hamas, I am just pointing out that it probably could.

[Kogan Loloklam]

Okay, so they aren't shooting randomly at people's houses?
That means their actions aren't crazy and are actually causing a reduction in the insecurity there? They are actually taking a leadership role and managing and/or governing?

Nah. That ain't happening. They are going in and killing suspected gang members. Sure their bullets are aimed at the bedrooms that they are pretty sure the gang member is in, but it's still shooting up houses and not really doing anything productive.

[burningpet]

Snip

Why does hamas needs tunnels, mortars, rockets and anti tank missiles to defend against terrorists?

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=713579

Those demands say nothing about preventing hamas from arming itself for a larger escalation in 10 years from now, nor do they say anything about abandoning the tunnel operation. do you think israel should just let hamas freely arm itself for a future escalation?

Smjjames - israel is negotiating with hamas through 3rd parties and are more than cooperating with hamas over multiple occasions.

Hamas is separated into two major branches - The political branch, which israel is more or less cooperating with and the military branch that is far more religious and hostile that israel only cooperate through the political branch. those two groups sometimes don't see eye to eye and are occasionally even regarded as completely separate groups.

Okay, so they aren't shooting randomly at people's houses?
That means their actions aren't crazy and are actually causing a reduction in the insecurity there? They are actually taking a leadership role and managing and/or governing?

Nah. That ain't happening. They are going in and killing suspected gang members. Sure their bullets are aimed at the bedrooms that they are pretty sure the gang member is in, but it's still shooting up houses and not really doing anything productive.

Since when does israel suppose to govern in gaza?

And what other productive options israel has against a terror organization that refuse to acknowledge its existence and prove so by firing rockets at its civilians and dig tunnels so it could kidnap soldiers and/or massacre civilians?

Btw, if anyone ever thought hamas shot rockets only during this recent escalation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014

[Leafsnail]

Why does hamas needs tunnels, mortars, rockets and anti tank missiles to defend against terrorists?

Well if the bloackade were lifted Hamas wouldn't need tunnels.  As for the rest of those things those would be more to defend against/deter Israel than other terrorist groups.

Those demands say nothing about preventing hamas from arming itself for a larger escalation in 10 years from now, nor do they say anything about abandoning the tunnel operation. do you think israel should just let hamas freely arm itself for a future escalation?

If you can't create a lasting peace deal during or after a ten year ceasefire with no blockade then the situation really is fucked beyond repair.  Also if the bloackade is lifted there'd be no real need for tunnels.

I don't particularly see why Hamas shouldn't arm itself during that period though, unless you're proposing that Israel also stops training soldiers and buying weapons during that time-frame.

[Kogan Loloklam]

Since when does israel suppose to govern in gaza?

And what other productive options israel has against a terror organization that refuse to acknowledge its existence and prove so by firing rockets at its civilians and dig tunnels so it could kidnap soldiers and/or massacre civilians?

They aren't, but a Government is supposed to act like a government. Fighting fire with fire is only okay if you, you know, stop the fire?

So, what should they do instead? Well if it can't be something that works, how about something they haven't tried yet?
Heck, they could do NOTHING and have better results than their current actions.

[Sheb]

All of you that point out that you can't have a war without civilian casualties miss one point. Israel chose to escalate and have this war in the first place. (burningpet himself said so earlier). It's like if you argue that the thousands of dead Iraqi are no big deal because you cannot fight without casualties, while ignoring there could have been no war in the first place.

I also dispute the fact that Israel is using the minimum amount of force needed to stop the rockets flying. As seen from their target list (which include supply tunnels and the houses of Hamas leaders) their goals is to exhaust Hamas. Israeli policy is basically to bomb the shit out of Gaza every other years to keep it in submission. That's why we had Cast Lead, then Pillar of Defense and now Protective Edge. I've actually seen some Israeli calling it "mowing the lawn" (Al-Jazzera English got a nice interactive thingy). Expect more strikes in two or three years.

Finally, the statement that Israel is forced into being a dick to Gazan by Hamas is so ridiculous I'm seriously wondering how you can say this with a straight face. We have a perfect experiment into what happens when Palestinians act nice and non-violent called the West Bank. The results? 85% of it is under Israeli military occupation, and the settlements are expanding. More or less arbitrary arrest (Which are not much better than the Palestinian 'kidnapping') are common, as are security actions like the search for the missing Israeli teenagers that left 7 dead Palestinians.

You want to make peace with Gaza? Show the Palestinians there is an alternative, as of now, the Israeli foreign policy is all stick and no carrot.

P.S.

Apparently a group called the "Jewish Defense League" attacked a pro-Palestinian demonstration (which, judging by the picture, also included a bunch of anti-semite) in Paris.