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Author Topic: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!  (Read 364282 times)

Culise

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4515 on: September 04, 2013, 07:30:59 pm »

Maybe we should start funding Islamists and relocating them a few hundred kilometers north from their current locations. That might actually touch Russian interests for once :D
They already have quite a few of their own.  For that matter, Russia's probably rather quietly pleased about one particular silver lining in this Syrian storm cloud.  Instead of blowing up Moscow, their homegrown Islamist terrorists are heading off to Syria to blow up Damascus.  For every Chechen "freedom fighter" working with Al Qaeda that filters into Syria, Putin gets that much more willing to back Assad to the hilt. 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 07:32:45 pm by Culise »
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Owlbread

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4516 on: September 04, 2013, 07:43:38 pm »

Who would have suspected it was the nocturnal pastry all along?

My agents are everywhere.

They already have quite a few of their own.  For that matter, Russia's probably rather quietly pleased about one particular silver lining in this Syrian storm cloud.  Instead of blowing up Moscow, their homegrown Islamist terrorists are heading off to Syria to blow up Damascus.  For every Chechen "freedom fighter" working with Al Qaeda that filters into Syria, Putin gets that much more willing to back Assad to the hilt.

The number of Chechen freedom fighters going to fight in Syria will never really exceed the number that are currently fighting at home. Factional divisions are already forming between the hardline Islamists (i.e. the ones who would be going to fight abroad) who have been largely unsuccessful in sustaining a resistance and the more nationalist, "Ichkerian" groups. As foreign fighters are leaving to fight in Syria and other Jihadist flashpoints, we're seeing a far more recognisably Chechen resistance forming rather than the international melting pot that was there before. It's only a matter of time before Dokka Umarov is eventually killed and we will see quite a different makeup of resistance fighters appearing.

I'd say that they'd be more likely to negotiate but somehow I'm not so sure, and exactly whom they would be negotiating with doesn't bear thinking about. I can only see things getting worse when Putin inevitably leaves the Presidency. In the face of mounting public pressure his successor will be unable to keep up United Russia's stance on pouring taxpayer's money into semi-stable, semi-conquered territories/countries in the Northern Caucasus and placating their leaders with sports cars, lumps of gold and money to throw at prostitutes. Once that happens and these crooks stop getting honest Russian citizens' money flowing into their pockets, things could get ugly.

I think Putin and the general Russian establishment's chosen course of action right now involves hunting down every last Chechen dissident, Ichkerian or Islamist and assassinating them or killing them in battle until there's none left, whether that's abroad or at home. Fortunately that isn't working.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 07:50:41 pm by Owlbread »
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ggamer

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4517 on: September 04, 2013, 07:53:36 pm »

Maybe we should start funding Islamists and relocating them a few hundred kilometers north from their current locations. That might actually touch Russian interests for once :D

Ah yes, fund the islamic extremists. It went so fucking well last time, why not.

ibot66

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4518 on: September 04, 2013, 09:56:54 pm »

To be fair to the stupid, stupid intelligence agencys, you don't see the USSR in Afghanistan.
Or really anywhere else.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4519 on: September 04, 2013, 10:19:40 pm »

I don't think they're stupid.  I think people are just naive about their purpose.
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misko27

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4520 on: September 04, 2013, 10:30:47 pm »

To be fair to the stupid, stupid intelligence agencys, you don't see the USSR in Afghanistan.
Or really anywhere else.
This is true. Now if we could just fund people who hate the other guy and not us we'd be alright.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4521 on: September 05, 2013, 01:06:40 am »

Afghanistan used to be a major USSR ally though.
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Guardian G.I.

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« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 02:35:04 am by Guardian G.I. »
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Duuvian

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4523 on: September 05, 2013, 03:56:07 am »

Any word from the UN inspectors?

I've been in favor of intervention for a while; since it became clear that Russia's own attempts to stop the violence are ineffective.

That said it would make the US and any other interveners look extremely bad if there is later found to be some credit to Putin's idea that any one of the disparate rebel groups had used chemical weapons. I would suggest that the US make a statement that any 'brigade' (as I have heard different bands of fighters called) that is found to have utilized or that was preparing to use chemical weapons to be no friend of the US and can expect at the very least no support and more likely outright opposition by it's forces both during the duration of the civil war and the rebuilding afterwards.

It is truly sad though that the large window available to the Russian government to condemn the firing upon protestors was wasted by their refusal to suggest elections and/or withdraw support for Assad, while later great political energy was used to prop up a convenient leader by confounding international attempts at humanitarian intervention.

Russia's leadership and it's allies of convenience have shown themselves unable or unwilling to stop supporting a man who protects his supremacy over other humans with lethal fire into unarmed crowds, a man who through his selfish intransigence has forced an avoidable civil war and who is personally responsible for the deaths of over 100,000 people as of last June. This is not acceptable to me.

It's not by change that Russia and the US forge an alliances in the most critical moments of modern history. That was the case in WWI and WWII even if there was fierce confrontation, our countries united against a common threat which means there's something that unites us. There must be some fundamental interest which bring us together. That's something we need to focus on first. We need to be aware of out difference but focus on a positive agenda that can improve our cooperation. -Vladimir Putin

Perhaps that time is at hand again. Both countries would rather that extremists do not rise in Syria. Both countries support the ban on chemical weaponry. Both countries benefit each other as friends, with the exception of a few scummy citizens who benefit from conflict. I have to assume the US is willing to make guarantees regarding Russian interests, as we don't want to fight, proxy war or not, the Russians as much as I'm sure the Russians do not want to fight us. I would hope that if Russia were to make a reasonable overture regarding their conditions for their noninterference or even support of an intervention that US lawmakers remember the difficulties and costs of misguided foreign policy and rather than express condemnation instead feel sympathy for the conscience of those who, later proven wrong, chose politics over morals.

I'd like to call on the US and other Western powers to ponder this: Would Russia change it's mind if guarantees of noninterference of the status of it's military bases and investments in the country were made by interveners? I wouldn't call for it to be binding on the government the Syrians elect, however, as that seems to be their own to decide when they have the opportunity, though I would humbly suggest if I could that at the wars end anyone's help should be welcomed by them.

It seems that action must be taken by either one side or the other. America is showing signs of standing up for humanitarian reasons in opposition of allowing a modern precedent for the use of chemical weapons. It may be up to Russia to bend slightly this time, as the West has done sitting in pained silence while watching some of the values they pride themselves on most ignored for the hope of following the path that best ensures world peace. As Syria's conflict is apparently spreading to other areas in the region, some places allies of one side and other allies of the other, even the small solace of not risking the incomparable tragedy of global war is paling into the acknowledgement that the situation continues to get worse with each month that humanity waits and bickers.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 04:13:08 am by Duuvian »
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Sort of finished and awaiting remix due to loss of most recent song file before addition of drums:
https://www.box.com/s/s3oba05kh8mfi3sorjm0 <-zguit

10ebbor10

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4524 on: September 05, 2013, 04:27:07 am »

The rebels aren't that much better. It's just because there multiple brigades, that you don't get a total view of the amounts of people killed.


On a side note. The American intervention is not for humanitarian reasons. It's just the need to fulfill a threat. Sending a few cruise missiles into a firefight rarely improves a situation.

If you want a stable society in Syria, supporting the existing regime is the easiest way to do it. Otherwise you're likely to get a situation similar to Afghanistan, with an ineffective government and radical armed militia.
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Duuvian

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4525 on: September 05, 2013, 05:12:36 am »

The rebels aren't that much better. It's just because there multiple brigades, that you don't get a total view of the amounts of people killed.


On a side note. The American intervention is not for humanitarian reasons. It's just the need to fulfill a threat. Sending a few cruise missiles into a firefight rarely improves a situation.

If you want a stable society in Syria, supporting the existing regime is the easiest way to do it. Otherwise you're likely to get a situation similar to Afghanistan, with an ineffective government and radical armed militia.

The fact that there are many brigades give a good reason to determine which are culpable for any chemical attacks attributed to that particular alliance of convenience.

As for their possible use of gas, I covered that already. I'd guess if it's true, it was likely a plot by a faction the US wouldn't want to be affiliated with anyways. One way to look at it is they win both ways if that were the case; if Assad retaliates the US will likely intervene AND has a good chance of looking bad for doing it if they don't explain themselves very well (such as important people saying they support intervention to back up a 'threat' to protect our credibility. You have to remember though that older folks unfortunately remember the Cold War and some even still believe in all of the ideas in vogue at the time to varying degrees and thus might sympathize with an argument that I think sounds counter productive to me.) Thus a faction that would like an intervention to clear the way to a takeover but that doesn't want the US to look very good doing it would stand the most to benefit. I think Putin made a similar case, but it used the black and white blanket term 'rebels' instead of the acknowledgement of different factions.

I won't refute the second. It will keep happening for an indefinable period barring intervention. Are they allowed to move POWs out of country to a UN and humanitarian organization inspected camp in say Turkey? I don't know if they are. If they are, it should definitely be encouraged rather than executions. If not that would be a good thing to set up.

According to wikipedia and video testimony aired previously on television: Opposition forces, mainly composed of defected soldiers and civilian volunteers, remain without central leadership. -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war

I also never once suggested putting them in charge. I think I mentioned elections. As for the revenge killings, that is a very valid point. Would you rather people on both sides be charged with war crimes if they earned the charges? I would agree with that.

On a side note. The American intervention is not for humanitarian reasons. It's just the need to fulfill a threat. Sending a few cruise missiles into a firefight rarely improves a situation.

It is for humanitarian reasons for some of us. I've paid attention to the matter the whole time. If it was simply to fulfill a threat I most certainly would be against it.

As for supporting the regime being the way to a stable society in Syria, why is there civil war in Syria?

I can't tell the future, but I don't think that with the application of previous knowledge by people there it will turn into another Afghanistan. They are two different countries with a common religious majority. I assume groups that oppose elections will oppose them and there will probably be tragedies committed by some of the more radical, but the war would be over and the refugees might be able to go home.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 05:33:18 am by Duuvian »
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scriver

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4526 on: September 05, 2013, 06:39:08 am »

I have met a considerable number of Russians who believe the West did (and may still do) exactly that.

But "the West" did fund islamist extremists.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4527 on: September 05, 2013, 06:50:12 am »

I have met a considerable number of Russians who believe the West did (and may still do) exactly that.
But "the West" did fund islamist extremists.
And all other extremists too. All's fair in the battle against communism.
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4528 on: September 05, 2013, 06:53:20 am »

I have met a considerable number of Russians who believe the West did (and may still do) exactly that.

But "the West" did fund islamist extremists.
Many people in Russia generally believe that Chechen separatists and terrorists are funded and armed by Saudi Arabia.
They also tend to believe that Saudi Arabia (along with Qatar) are American pawns, though.

I'd like to say, however, that Russia has a long history of bloody wars with Western countries. It would be weird if Russia didn't become paranoid towards the West after having to fight it numerous times.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4529 on: September 05, 2013, 07:01:21 am »

The later is correct. Saudi Arabia and Qatar are US allies.
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