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Author Topic: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!  (Read 377586 times)

Descan

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4470 on: September 01, 2013, 11:07:50 pm »

I wouldn't call that hypocritical. I mean, the U.S. constitution has the whole, Separation of Church and State. Same people all for that would be all up in arms if it was suddenly "Christians are totes in power you guiz".
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shadenight123

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4471 on: September 02, 2013, 01:45:01 am »

If only Italy separated State and Religion the same way...
And to think we're supposed to be a Republic founded on work and communist ideals...
One has to wonder why the entire senate and the parliament cannot be accused of High Treason for lacking in the first article of the Constitution.
Aka 'Working'.

That said, Italy is kind of the mule for refugees. Greece hits them. Malta refuses them. I don't know what Spain does.
We accept them all, and our refugee camps are in a nigh state of decline and overloaded with people who, in the best cases, simply want to go on with their lives elsewhere and, in the worst cases, actually start violent protests because they want more than what is shared with them.

Then when one of them dies because of the heat or something, they become outright violent.

Take a hint, refugees. Italy isn't the place for you. Go in Germany, go in France, go elsewhere. Italy's not going to help you. It can't even help its own people.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4472 on: September 02, 2013, 01:46:13 am »

When talking to Europeans, that's not really a fair question to ask - our stupid laws keep most of the refugees in Spain, Italy, Greece.
Instead of channeling them to the countries that can, you know, actually help them properly.
That's a problem of the distinction between political refugees (These should be accepted*) and economical refugees (These should not*). Sadly, both are rather hard to keep apart. Hence why they need to remain inside the Influx countries till the procedure is finished, which is a rather lengthy and annoying affair. It's the same reason why we sometimes get fully integrated families being expelled.

I mean, it's got that bad that we**'re now giving any illegal immigrant about a good 1000 euro if they don't bother applying for asylum and just return to their country of origin (ticket included). Turns out that's cheaper too.


*According to international law.
**Belgium
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Owlbread

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4473 on: September 02, 2013, 08:45:29 am »

Oh yeah and Egypt apparently is re-writing the Constitution to be Islamist free.

It would be "pretty neat" if it was being carried out by a democratically elected government rather than a group imposed by the military.
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PatriotSaint

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4474 on: September 02, 2013, 09:00:57 am »

I wouldn't call that hypocritical. I mean, the U.S. constitution has the whole, Separation of Church and State. Same people all for that would be all up in arms if it was suddenly "Christians are totes in power you guiz".

Sorry to break the intellectual aura of The General Discussion Drunkbar, but that was never in the Constitution, that's in one of Thomas Jefferson's personal letters...

Also:

This means that a government-mandated church (state church/ church-state; think Great Britain around that time and pretty much all of those years before said time) is not permitted or tolerated.

It protects religion (or the lack of it) from the government, not the other way around.

It's not freedom from religion (or the lack of it), it's freedom of it.

Egypt isn't "separating church and state", there was never a joining. The church was, became the state. It "separated" every religion from the new Islamist state, except for it's own, of course.

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LordSlowpoke

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4475 on: September 02, 2013, 09:14:38 am »

soooooooooooo

i heard the sauds and the uae actually went ahead and tossed 12 billion dollops at the egyptian army. i possess no links to support this claim and am in no position to get any, so apply salt and google where needed
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4476 on: September 02, 2013, 10:45:25 am »

Sorry to break the intellectual aura of The General Discussion Drunkbar, but that was never in the Constitution, that's in one of Thomas Jefferson's personal letters...
While the exact phrase "separation of church and state" is indeed from Jefferson's letters and not the Constitution, the Constitution quite clearly expresses the exact same sentiment with "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". This is further supported still by the No Religious Test Clause of Article VI.

Furthermore, I find it funny that people constantly try to bring up this whole "It was just Jefferson!" argument, when he was, you know, kind of involved in the creation of the Constitution and became the third President. I think it is safe to say that his external writings have some merit in determining what exactly the Founders meant.
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Also:

This means that a government-mandated church (state church/ church-state; think Great Britain around that time and pretty much all of those years before said time) is not permitted or tolerated.

It protects religion (or the lack of it) from the government, not the other way around.

It's not freedom from religion (or the lack of it), it's freedom of it.
By definition the street must run both ways in order for stable freedom to exist. If one has freedom of religion without freedom from religion, then the government can and will establish religion in some form (even if this does not mean going to the extent of having a State Church). As this power is most likely to fall with the largest religious group, all minority groups will be oppressed. Meanwhile, if one has freedom from religion without freedom of religion, then the government can and will oppress any religious group that they dislike. As this power is most likely to fall with the largest religious group....all minority groups will be oppressed.

The United States holds a great honor in being the first secular state of the modern era, one that is too often forgotten or done a disservice by arguments such as your own.
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Egypt isn't "separating church and state", there was never a joining. The church was, became the state. It "separated" every religion from the new Islamist state, except for it's own, of course.
There was most certainly a joining under the Muslim Brotherhood's administration. The church did not become the state. The church becoming the state would be the actual religious authorities having direct political power (such as in Iran), and the lack or depowering of a civilian administration in favor of a religious one. That did not happen. This, the exercising of religious oppression by the civilian administration, is just the result of not separating church and state.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 10:49:00 am by MetalSlimeHunt »
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PatriotSaint

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4477 on: September 02, 2013, 12:16:08 pm »

"Constitution quite clearly expresses the same sentiment with 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion'"

XD

Really?

I think you take "no law respecting religion" a little bit too literally.

To you it basically means "make laws disrespecting religion".

It means no laws related to religion at all.

No laws that socialize church. (state church)

No laws that ban it.
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Strife26

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4478 on: September 02, 2013, 12:33:42 pm »

What?

PatriotSaint, you need to start reading what other people post.

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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4479 on: September 02, 2013, 01:37:00 pm »

"Constitution quite clearly expresses the same sentiment with 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion'"

XD

Really?

I think you take "no law respecting religion" a little bit too literally.

To you it basically means "make laws disrespecting religion".
I'm glad to see you're so willing to tell me what I believe, seeing as I didn't say that at all. "Respect", in this case, has nothing to do with the notion of respect in the "I respect you" sense. It means respect in the sense that it is used as a synonym for "cause" or "relation to".

As such, it means that laws are to be made without the recognition of religious authority.
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It means no laws related to religion at all.

No laws that socialize church. (state church)

No laws that ban it.
While it does indeed preclude a state church and a ban on religion, it does not mean that there can be no laws related to religion. It means that the law must be independent of religion. This has been long supported by the legal traditions of the United States. For example, you have Reynolds v. US, which disregarded the notion that you can break the law if it is for your religion.
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To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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PatriotSaint

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4480 on: September 02, 2013, 01:47:09 pm »

"Constitution quite clearly expresses the same sentiment with 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion'"

XD

Really?

I think you take "no law respecting religion" a little bit too literally.

To you it basically means "make laws disrespecting religion".
I'm glad to see you're so willing to tell me what I believe, seeing as I didn't say that at all. "Respect", in this case, has nothing to do with the notion of respect in the "I respect you" sense. It means respect in the sense that it is used as a synonym for "cause" or "relation to".

As such, it means that laws are to be made without the recognition of religious authority.
Quote
It means no laws related to religion at all.

No laws that socialize church. (state church)

No laws that ban it.
While it does indeed preclude a state church and a ban on religion, it does not mean that there can be no laws related to religion. It means that the law must be independent of religion. This has been long supported by the legal traditions of the United States. For example, you have Reynolds v. US, which disregarded the notion that you can break the law if it is for your religion.

1. As to "respect", yes, the same way "well-regulated" meant something way different back then.

I didn't expect someone to actually look that up, but this is a new day and age, and a forum to go along with it, apparently.  ;)

2. I'm fairly sure anything illegal was always illegal in all cases.

3. A notion disregarded is hardly a law.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4481 on: September 02, 2013, 02:30:45 pm »

2. I'm fairly sure anything illegal was always illegal in all cases.
While technically true, before this ruling there was no explicit prohibition on using one's religion as a legal defense.
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3. A notion disregarded is hardly a law.
It is when the Supreme Court does it.
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To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #4482 on: September 02, 2013, 09:06:19 pm »

Hey PatriotSaint.  What's your point?
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this means that a donation of 30 dollars to a developer that did not deliver would equal 4.769*10^-14 hitlers stolen from you
that's like half a femtohitler
and that is terrible
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