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Author Topic: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!  (Read 376674 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3840 on: February 06, 2013, 12:11:03 pm »

Heh...see, I feel like Turkey is a bit like Germany in that they've both had a bad situation in the past, but their reaction to that has been to go a little extreme in the opposite direction. Germany is so anti-Nazi that you it's illegal to depict a swastika, even in a historical context or a negative one.
Not quite.
Quote
Kemal Ataturk was so anti-religion because of the Ottoman theocracy, that he inculcated a culture where you basically can't discuss or express religion in public. In a country that's some 90% Muslim. That's kind of effed up, IMHO.
You can't modernize a nation without changing the fundamental nature of the society. In a nation that was only a few years ago part of the Ottoman Empire, religion had to take a fall for progress to happen.

The fact is that religion holds societies back more than it helps them, and that's not limited to just Islam.
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RedKing

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3841 on: February 06, 2013, 12:21:20 pm »

Heh...see, I feel like Turkey is a bit like Germany in that they've both had a bad situation in the past, but their reaction to that has been to go a little extreme in the opposite direction. Germany is so anti-Nazi that you it's illegal to depict a swastika, even in a historical context or a negative one.
Not quite.
Obviously the answer now is to mod every WWII game out there to have Nazis wearing big crossed-out swastikas.


Quote
Kemal Ataturk was so anti-religion because of the Ottoman theocracy, that he inculcated a culture where you basically can't discuss or express religion in public. In a country that's some 90% Muslim. That's kind of effed up, IMHO.
You can't modernize a nation without changing the fundamental nature of the society. In a nation that was only a few years ago part of the Ottoman Empire, religion had to take a fall for progress to happen.

The fact is that religion holds societies back more than it helps them, and that's not limited to just Islam.
[/quote]
It wasn't just that, it was this perception (somewhat valid) that the theocratic nature of the Ottomans is what led to their lagging behind the West technologically. I'd argue that it was more just due to Imperial inertia, because obviously Islam wasn't an impediment around, say...1550-1650? When the Ottomans were as powerful and technologically advanced as any nation in Europe? And religion was one of the unifying forces of a vast multi-ethnic empire.

Guess what I'm saying is that I think religion took the fall for what was more of a failure of bureaucracy and entrenched power rather than something inherently pernicious about religion.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3842 on: February 06, 2013, 12:33:10 pm »

It wasn't just that, it was this perception (somewhat valid) that the theocratic nature of the Ottomans is what led to their lagging behind the West technologically. I'd argue that it was more just due to Imperial inertia, because obviously Islam wasn't an impediment around, say...1550-1650? When the Ottomans were as powerful and technologically advanced as any nation in Europe? And religion was one of the unifying forces of a vast multi-ethnic empire.
Sure, but that was back in the days when religion and government were in harmony, and also not long after Islam's Golden Age ended. Plus, the Ottoman Empire specifically had a very powerful tool for maintaining its power in the Janissaries.

Is the Sultan incompetent, leading the Empire to ruin, or trying to consolidate his power? Then the Janissaries kill him and stick one of his brothers or cousins, of which there are never any shortage, on the throne. Solves one of the big problems with absolute monarchy, though how much you can describe it as absolute when the Janissaries are constantly waiting for the chance to kill you for fucking up is debatable.
Quote
Guess what I'm saying is that I think religion took the fall for what was more of a failure of bureaucracy and entrenched power rather than something inherently pernicious about religion.
What we're seeing now in Turkey would have happened a long time ago and to a much greater extent if not for Ataturk's actions. Islamism is just that pervasive.
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scriver

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3843 on: February 06, 2013, 12:43:31 pm »

Just going to interject here and point out that the Turkish military also had no problem staging coups and committing extra-judicial killings of folks on the Left in the 1970's. I'm far less sanguine about their "noble" role in things. Just like the Pakistani and Egyptian miltiaries, they built themselves up in the latter 20th century as the bulwark against Communism and Islamism, and have used that old saw to justify some fairly nasty anti-democratic shit over the years.

You make is sound like the ever stopped.
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RedKing

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3844 on: February 06, 2013, 01:15:45 pm »

Is the Sultan incompetent, leading the Empire to ruin, or trying to consolidate his power? Then the Janissaries kill him and stick one of his brothers or cousins, of which there are never any shortage, on the throne. Solves one of the big problems with absolute monarchy, though how much you can describe it as absolute when the Janissaries are constantly waiting for the chance to kill you for fucking up is debatable.

Is the Emperor incompetent, leading the Empire to ruin, or trying to consolidate his power? Then the Praetorian Guard kill him and stick one of his brothers or cousins, of which there are never any shortage, on the throne. Solves one of the big problems with absolute monarchy, though how much you can describe it as absolute when the Praetorians are constantly waiting for the chance to kill you for fucking up is debatable.

Is the Son of Heaven incompetent, leading the Empire to ruin, or trying to consolidate his power? Then the Court Eunuchs kill him and stick one of his brothers or cousins, of which there are never any shortage, on the throne. Solves one of the big problems with absolute monarchy, though how much you can describe it as absolute when the eunuchs are constantly waiting for the chance to kill you for fucking up is debatable.

That's not a uniquely Ottoman problem or a religious problem. it's a problem of "When you trust your security to an entire organization devoted to it, that organization eventually realizes they can be kingmakers." The only reason the Secret Service doesn't knock off presidents left and right is because such a transition would not be recognized as legitimate in a democratic populace. In an Imperial setting, the average person doesn't give a shit who runs the Empire because they have no say in it anyways.

The Turkish (and Pakistani) militaries are modern-day Praetorians. They're supposedly there to safeguard democracy, but in essence they've realized their power as kingmakers and abuse the hell out of it to safeguard their own positions, which means they curtail any reforms that threaten it. Just like the Janissaries. It's not a religious problem, it's a power problem.
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Another

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3845 on: February 06, 2013, 01:27:40 pm »

That's not a uniquely Ottoman problem or a religious problem. it's a problem of "When you trust your security to an entire organization devoted to it, that organization eventually realizes they can be kingmakers." The only reason the Secret Service doesn't openly knock off presidents left and right is because such a transition would not be recognized as legitimate in a democratic populace. In an Imperial setting, the average person doesn't give a shit who runs the Empire because they have no say in it anyways.
Secret Service, duh. ;)
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Guardian G.I.

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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3847 on: February 06, 2013, 02:44:41 pm »

Oh shit, here we go again. Ennahda had best not be making a power grab here.
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nenjin

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3848 on: February 06, 2013, 03:32:12 pm »

Wouldn't it be easier to ask Wikipedia first, then ask people for clarification?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3849 on: February 06, 2013, 03:43:22 pm »

....What?
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nenjin

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3850 on: February 06, 2013, 03:49:24 pm »

Bah. Totally responding to the page before last. That's what I get for reading threads while I've got an auction running my ear.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 03:50:57 pm by nenjin »
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Leatra

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3851 on: February 06, 2013, 05:26:21 pm »

Quote
Kemal Ataturk was so anti-religion because of the Ottoman theocracy, that he inculcated a culture where you basically can't discuss or express religion in public. In a country that's some 90% Muslim. That's kind of effed up, IMHO.
You can't modernize a nation without changing the fundamental nature of the society. In a nation that was only a few years ago part of the Ottoman Empire, religion had to take a fall for progress to happen.

The fact is that religion holds societies back more than it helps them, and that's not limited to just Islam.

Atatürk knew that well. That's why he was slow (actually his idea of "slow" was still kinda fast) to change the fundamentals of the country. Even after he slowed down, people still had trouble with adapting to new ideas. Before he outright rejected caliphate, he kept the "Islam is the religion of Republic of Turkey" thing going in the constitutional charter for a while.

That's not a uniquely Ottoman problem or a religious problem. it's a problem of "When you trust your security to an entire organization devoted to it, that organization eventually realizes they can be kingmakers." The only reason the Secret Service doesn't knock off presidents left and right is because such a transition would not be recognized as legitimate in a democratic populace. In an Imperial setting, the average person doesn't give a shit who runs the Empire because they have no say in it anyways.

The Turkish (and Pakistani) militaries are modern-day Praetorians. They're supposedly there to safeguard democracy, but in essence they've realized their power as kingmakers and abuse the hell out of it to safeguard their own positions, which means they curtail any reforms that threaten it. Just like the Janissaries. It's not a religious problem, it's a power problem.

Janissaries were much worse. At least the army isn't against revolutionary and innovative rulers. Janissaries were exactly like that. Osman the Young, for example, got executed when he was 17 years old because of his ideas. Granted, he tried to replace the Janissaries and of course they weren't happy with it.

My father knows about this coup stuff. He was a left-winger and he probably got into some dirty shit around the times of the second coup, but he never tells me when I ask him about these days. All I know is some of his friends got killed and, from what my grandma told me, he almost got shot once.

I'm telling my father's experience: "In the first coup (I was 17 years old), every left-wingers supported the military coup. Because government wasn't doing it's job. The military gave an ultimatum to the government, and after the government kept failing, the army took over. Everybody had a relief. But nothing changed. The military allowed the congress to operate. A new government was formed by the military. A few political positions changed here and there. After the coup, most politicians reclaimed their positions. It was all over again.

In the times of the second coup, things were much worse. Before the coup, people were getting massacred. It was complete chaos. Working class literally walked towards police tanks. People were killing each other and even walking around was dangerous. In my personal opinion, the fire was kindled by the country who funded Counter-Guerilla, USA. (translator's note: most people here agree that USA did mess with some stuff to create chaos) Anyway, the military stepped in, killings started to decrease. Military started a new congress, they wrote the charter they wanted to and they got their favored party win the elections.

Military coups are always bad. Worst government is better than the best coup, no matter how bad the situation is."


Translation is rough, but he pretty much said this.

By the way, anti-government protests are going on in Tunisia.

It's not about the revolution, it's about what happens after the revolution. I see revolutions in the east like an excuse to overthrow the government. The people living there deserve better than this after all they lived through.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3852 on: February 06, 2013, 05:33:07 pm »

Quote from: Leatra
But nothing changed. The military allowed the congress to operate. A new government was formed by the military. A few political positions changed here and there. After the coup, most politicians reclaimed their positions. It was all over again.
And this is why you don't want the army getting into politics. At best they're doing the bidding of a politician/enterpreneur/monarch who did not agree with the ballot result. At worst they'll give the seat to some powerhungry general.

I don't mean Turkey in particular, for the record. This is kind of an universally appliable impression, rather.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 05:37:27 pm by ChairmanPoo »
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Scoops Novel

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3853 on: February 07, 2013, 11:33:16 am »

What can you tell me about the tunisian goverment?
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Dutchling

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3854 on: February 07, 2013, 11:50:04 am »

What can you tell me about the tunisian goverment?

Quite a lot actually
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