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[MetalSlimeHunt]

Honestly, I hope this doesn't happen, because if the Kemalist attitudes behind that mentality do lead to another coup, it'll be the military and the coup leaders that get blamed for the inevitable fallout of Erdogan's attitudes; remember that regardless of anything else, the AKP still enjoys popular support with a plurality of the voting public.  What I hope for is for Erdogan to fail in such a way that it is Islamism that gets discredited.

These two things aren't mutually exclusive. Erdogan just needs to go too far, the military will take him out, and everyone will cheer Kemalism and the Turkish Armed Forces for fulfilling their assigned role of protecting the Turkish people against tyranny. Tyranny in this instance will be Islamism and the Turks will shy away from it.

To be honest, though the military has remained a force for secularism in Turkey, their ability and willingness to interfere in democratic processes in an extra-legal fashion has always struck me as a rather unhealthy capability, and one that has seemed to impair the development of stable structural systems in the Turkish government.

I disagree. Islam's dedication to getting all up in the business of political systems needs a drainage system that the thoroughly secularized West no longer needs for Christianity. The Turkish military has acted admirably in the past to invoke its power only in necessary circumstances, and as I've said elsewhere: Modernized militaries don't seek military dictatorships. That stuff is mostly limited to warlords with forces that were never unified in the first place. In areas with established civilian governments, the military has no reason nor desire to run the civilian government. If you asked a general to write legislation they'd look at you like you've lost your mind. Modern millitaries are good at one thing, and one thing only: being a military.

Still, I think it's rather unlikely.  In 1997, they limited themselves to a strongly worded letter (which the then-Prime Minister bowed to, but that's another story), and Erdogan made a very decisive move against them as he has and still continues to arrest (successfully!) a large number of senior officers since 2008.  The fact that the military has actually and repeatedly buckled under rather than sending tanks into Istanbul again, even after the 2010 arrests, suggests strongly that a coup is no longer on the table as a viable alternative.

It isn't over yet. Erdogan has just been careful, very careful to move slowly in making his theocracy and ruining the military. He'll slip up soon enough, just you wait. I believe the Turks are more dedicated to the secular principles set up by Ataturk than the whims of some modern fundamentalist.

[Leatra]

I have been mostly just reading and lurking the thread, but I felt the need to say something now because my Turkish Mustache of Doom is tingling! Don't worry, I'm unbiased.

STATISTICS TIME!

Most people in Turkey are not fond of EU and they know they will never join EU (since they are a Muslim state and all that). According to the latest Turkish EU poll (Turkey has one of those very year or so) 33% of Turkish people believe joining EU will do no good for them. 29% believe Turkey should join EU because Turkish citizens will get to travel freely. It seems everyone, including Turkish people, don't want to see Turkey in EU. Also, %78 believe they have no chance at joining EU. So, EU is not going to happen since even the people living in Turkey aren't really enthusiastic about it. Around half of the Turkish people are in favor of cooperation with Russia and it's neighbors. The rest are in favor of BRIC or cooperation with Islamic countries.

Oh, and Turkey isn't going to join SCO. When you look at Turkey's prime minister's opinions about EU (a love-hate relationship) I'd call it a bluff of some kind.

I have heard that you can tell a Turk's politics by his moustache. People with small, trimmed toothbrush style moustaches are often Islamists while people with large, bushy moustaches are left-wingers. Mr. Erdogan appears to fall into one of those categories.

Despite how stereotypical that sounds, it's completely true. This was actually reversed around the times when Ottoman Empire was collapsing though. Fear the small brush-like mustached ones, for they are conservatives! Clean shaved is more likely to mean that the politician is leftist too. Also, bushy mustache can indicate nationalism, which can fall on the left sometimes. Full beard and mustache is an obvious Islamist. Most Islamists and right-wingers favor an Erdoğan-like mustache.

The fact that continents are a matter of opinion already renders that defunct. North and South America, or just America? Europe, Africa, and Asia, or Eurasia and Africa? Or Afro-Eurasia? If Australia is a continent why isn't Japan or Greenland? Why does Antarctica get to be a continent when most of it is floating ice and not land?

Anyway, I don't see Turkey breaking with NATO, which would be a prerequisite for joining the SCO. Joining the SCO is willingly putting yourself in the Russian-Chinese power struggle, which is a very unpleasant unholy alliance. The only reason Turkey is a dialogue partner is because Erdogan is trying to advance his Islamist agenda, which means getting out of NATO and EU watch. Once the Turkish military kills him all will be well again.

Honestly, I hope this doesn't happen, because if the Kemalist attitudes behind that mentality do lead to another coup, it'll be the military and the coup leaders that get blamed for the inevitable fallout of Erdogan's attitudes; remember that regardless of anything else, the AKP still enjoys popular support with a plurality of the voting public.  What I hope for is for Erdogan to fail in such a way that it is Islamism that gets discredited.  To be honest, though the military has remained a force for secularism in Turkey, their ability and willingness to interfere in democratic processes in an extra-legal fashion has always struck me as a rather unhealthy capability, and one that has seemed to impair the development of stable structural systems in the Turkish government.  One of the very few things I think that Erdogan did right is making the army answerable to the government, rather than the other way around, even if he largely did it to increase his own power. 

Still, I think it's rather unlikely.  In 1997, they limited themselves to a strongly worded letter (which the then-Prime Minister bowed to, but that's another story), and Erdogan made a very decisive move against them as he has and still continues to arrest (successfully!) a large number of senior officers since 2008.  The fact that the military has actually and repeatedly buckled under rather than sending tanks into Istanbul again, even after the 2010 arrests, suggests strongly that a coup is no longer on the table as a viable alternative. 

You see, politics in Turkey work like this: Secularist iron-fisted military VS fundamentally Islamist and corrupted Democratic Kleptocracy.

While I hate militaristic governments and dictatorships, I hate governments which acts like a banana republic too. While I very much want to see Erdoğan disappear for all the evil he has done (and his terrible mustache), I can only guess the chaos which will follow after his... disappearance. Also, I'm a Kemalist and Kemalism isn't really about militarism. Though that view is understandable since Kemalism's revolutionist ideology.

-snip-

This guy speaks the truth. While I'm not too fond of the idea where military takes Erdoğan out and establishes a temporary militaristic government, I don't see any other choice. However, watching Erdoğan get executed would be pleasing. Anyway, democracy is no way out with the way how AKP tends to "play with" elections to make sure they stay in power. At least Turkish Armed Forces usually don't get carried away when they are in the middle of a coup. They are more likely to kill the extremists, install a new government and get away from interfering further as quickly as possible. If they wanted to establish a permanent militarist dictatorship, they would have done it two coups ago.

Fun fact: Officially, %98 of the population is Muslim. However, there are a lot of people who hides their true religion because we are living in a fucked up country These people who fake a religion are usually atheists, deists, tengriists and pagans. Christians and Jews are more likely to reveal their religions but there are people who hide it too. I'm so tired of acting like a Muslim among friends and family myself. Not to mention how difficult it is to guess the true religion of someone who you are talking to. There was a funny dialogue I had with an atheist. We both kept dropping hints that we were atheists but we both were wary of each other. I remember I said something like "I'm not really religious" than I followed that by a "but I'm Muslim, of course" to make sure I keep my disguise. I would explain further if it wouldn't derail the thread... more.

When compared to Middle East, we are all secular and shit, of course.

Anyway, I'm back to lurking! Thanks for listening to a Turkish citizen's perspective on this. It feels good to write things which I kept imprisoned in my mind of a long time.

[Leatra]

edit: double post. I blame the forum for eating my post and puking it out back again.

[nenjin]

Despite how stereotypical that sounds, it's completely true. Fear the small brush-like mustached ones, for they are conservatives! This was actually reversed around the times when Ottoman Empire was collapsing though.

Correct my obvious ignorance, but is this a Turkish political thing, a Muslim religious thing, or both? I always thought, at least using Afghanistan as a measuring stick, that wild, huge beards was a Muslim preference in general, that it reflected conservative Islamic thought.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Afghanistan is all about the beards because back when the Taliban were in power all men had to have a beard at least the size of a man's fist, on pain of death. Set the cultural landscape pretty quickly.

[nenjin]

Oh right, I forgot about Wahabism.

[Leatra]

Despite how stereotypical that sounds, it's completely true. Fear the small brush-like mustached ones, for they are conservatives! This was actually reversed around the times when Ottoman Empire was collapsing though.

Correct my obvious ignorance, but is this a Turkish political thing, a Muslim religious thing, or both? I always thought, at least using Afghanistan as a measuring stick, that wild, huge beards was a Muslim preference in general, that it reflected conservative Islamic thought.

Well, you caught me while I was editing that part of my post. In the edited version, I said full beard shouts "ISLAM!" but facial hair can still indicate political preferences too.

When it comes to religious facial hairs, most people avoid full beards because... well it just shouts "ISLAM!". That small brush-like mustache was popularized by Erdoğan and people who has a mustache like that usually tends to be Islamist, like Erdoğan. It doesn't shout but it says "Democratic Islam! *whisper*we will brainwash your children in the name of ISLAM!*whisper*" I guess. It's like having a Hitler mustache to me.

When it comes to political preferences, well, that can change actually. this kind of mustache is more nationalist but if the mustache also covers the lower lips (like Stalin) it can indicate a preference to communism.

Back in the coup days, a long hair also marked you as a communist and a very short hair marked you as a nationalist. Communists and nationalists were always killing each other at campuses and they usually paid attention to that kind of appearances. Hair is less... symbolic nowadays since people don't try to kill you because you like Che Guevara or something.

[Leatra]

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[Leatra]

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(damn gateway error)

[Owlbread]

I believe full beards were quite common in afganistan anyway, the taliban just forced it on those who didn't want it. It was also the case in islamist azawad. Barbers were abused for shaving people's beards.

Also, Leatra, your contributions are valued greatly.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

As I recall, it comes from some story in the Qur'an where Allah tells Abraham he can shave everything but his beard. So now, modern day Islamists, most of whom haven't read the Qur'an because they're illiterate, shoot barbers and beardless men.

[Owlbread]

A devout muslim must have a beard of at least a fist in thickness, but he must also trim his pubic hair and moustache. That is why many photos of mujahideen include men with thick beards and no moustaches.

[sneakey pete]

If Australia is a continent why isn't Japan or Greenland?

Because its way bigger?

Why does Antarctica get to be a continent when most of it is floating ice and not land?

Because most of it is land, and not floating ice.

[Blargityblarg]

If Australia is a continent why isn't Japan or Greenland?

Because its way bigger?

Why does Antarctica get to be a continent when most of it is floating ice and not land?

Because most of it is land, and not floating ice.

Antarctica's pretty frickin' small sans all the floating ice. Smaller than Greenland IIRC (I don't know if greenland is also sans all its floating ice for that comparison, though.)

[Scoops Novel]

Leatra, i at least dont mind the derail. I'd like to hear the story , i think it would be insightful.