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[Sheb]

Socialists (real "the-state-must-own-the-mean-of-production" kind) tend to defend the DPRK, intead of acknowledging it is one more exemple of a failed socialist experiment.

[SalmonGod]

That stuff just drives me crazy.  The examples of socialism available to us are pretty much useless.  The potentially good ones were actively hunted down and sabotaged, and the bad ones were put under as much pressure as possible to become as bad as they can be.  In the case of North Korea, I would think that the completely insane family in control of the country and the extreme isolation imposed on it by that family and the rest of the world would have more to do with their failure than any ideology, but it seems like people can't help politicizing everything, even when it clearly makes no sense.

[Nadaka]

Socialists (real "the-state-must-own-the-mean-of-production" kind) tend to defend the DPRK, intead of acknowledging it is one more exemple of a failed socialist experiment.

There is a wide range of socialist thought. The communist subset of that are the only ones who believe that the state must own the means of production. The only people that I know that actually defend north korea are psychopaths who dream of one day being worshiped as the god-king of their own little slice of the planet.

[Sheb]

Nadaka: that's the historical definition of socialism, but it sure drifted with time. Hence the parenthesis.

As for North Korea, have you considered that socialism might be an enabling factor? Having the state own everything make it really easy for one crazy dictator to ruin everything.

[PanH]

I don't think there's anything socialist in NK. It's just another example of dictatorship hiding behind an ideology. They could have chosen anything (cf national socialism).

Anyway, there's riots in Egypt. There has been clashes between police and protesters, especially in Port Said. There has been at least 50 deaths (in 5 days)

[Owlbread]

Socialists (real "the-state-must-own-the-mean-of-production" kind) tend to defend the DPRK, intead of acknowledging it is one more exemple of a failed socialist experiment.

I'm a bit reluctant to define myself as a socialist, but I'm still pretty left-leaning in a lot of ways (although I keep an open mind, I agree with some of the economic arguments like the state having the majority of control over the means of production, collectivisation of agriculture etc) and I really abhor the DPRK. There seems to be a very unfortunate lack of anti-totalitarian socialist figures nowadays with the loss of people like Orwell and Hitchens. Too often they just don't want to see, and it's a damned shame because it'll hold them back.

[Sheb]

Yeah, but for some reasons, anyone seen opposing "Western imperialism" seems to gather cred among some crowd, as do populists that bashes corporations banks or government. Nigel Farage is popular with Belgian leftists (That only know of his opposition to Europe). Hell, I just say one of my FB friend put a video of Putin and praising him for bashing those evil plutocrats.

Anyway, some people are stupid, and I think that's a position we can all agree on. (Although maybe not the specifics of who is stupid and who is not).

Anyone knows what those Egyptian protests are about? Is it still about the death penalty cases linked to those football riots?

[Nadaka]

Saying that Socialism = Communism = Marxism does a grievous disservice to ability to communicate ideas using language.

[Sheb]

Communism is common ownership of the mean of production. Soviets are communists, but not socialists. Of course, the meaning of socialist drifted quite a lot, which is why I made clear I was using the hsitorical or classical definition.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

Soviets are communists, but not socialists.

you mean the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics? well, that's debatable. some would argue they're not communist either, and some define communism as a form of socialism

[Descan]

Of course, the person who said "communists/socialists/marxists" (I think it was frumple but I'm not sure) probably put them seperated like that, because they KNEW they were different, but held at least some similar ideas to lump them together in the context that they were talking about (I.E. defending North Korea).

I've ranged in my thought processes on socialism and such-like over the years, reading arguements for and against and listening to friends with different views. (One of them is a hardcore, get rid-of-taxes-and-the-rest-will-follow libertarian, but otherwise she's a good person [seewhutididthar])

And lately, though "lately" means since around 2006, I've come to the idea that capitalism is a good idea. The only problem is, the bottom rung of society of a purely capitalist society is under water. So I've come to the idea that, we can get a caring capitalist society, if we bump up the lowest rung you can end up on (right now being homeless, starving, and drug-addicted to the hardest) to something approaching survivable (shelter over your head, food in your stomach, and help for any drug addiction you have, whether it be getting you off them, or for something like heroin, a safe place to inject/injest)

I don't really know how to get there. Higher taxes on the higher branches and give everyone a 10k yearly income? Automate everything with robots and AI and give people a credit for basic uses, and contributing to society gives you more credits to use? I would have thought "Government subsidized housing and food", but then you get substandard food and "the Projects", so that's not a great track record...

Any other ideas on how to do it?

[Frumple]

You... you probably meant Nadaka. I think. This is my first post on this thread in over a month. Though I've been reading along, obviously

Being fair, me and Nadaka are in the same state, and in a day or so will be in the same city for a couple weeks, but... yeah, different folks. Though it looks like Owlbread brought it first and... no connection, there. At least me and Sheb are both using greyscale avatars.

Anywaay. NK going into full out starvation mode (again, apparently) is just kinda' sad, really. S'there any word on what (if there is any) impact it's having on the neighbors over there?

[Descan]

Probably meant Nadaka, yes. It was recent but I'm too lazy to click back a page and scroll down 40-50 posts. :3

[Sheb]

One good think about Best Korea is that they're pretty good at keeping their problems within their borders. The US may like its big wall on the Mexican borders, but it doesn't have soldiers shooting on sight on people trying to cross the Rio Grande. So no, no real effects.

[Scelly9]

One good think about Best Korea is that they're pretty good at keeping their problems within their borders. The US may like its big wall on the Mexican borders, but it doesn't have soldiers shooting on sight on people trying to cross the Rio Grande. So no, no real effects.

That's not necessarily good when it goes hand in hand with being good at covering things up.