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Author Topic: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!  (Read 376924 times)

Owlbread

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3645 on: January 26, 2013, 10:31:59 am »

Legitimacy was lost a while ago; it's more an issue of every developed nation in the world coming in to shut that shit down. Using bio-weapons on a population likely to become refugees, simple in pragmatic terms, is just about as bad as sending it directly to every neighboring country. It isn't fuck the rebels, it's fuck the world.

That's what I'm trying to say. All legitimacy would be lost with the international community - I'd be totally fucked. It would be my big "fuck you" to the whole world before I run away to North-West Syria in the coastal mountains and wait until I get pulled out of my hidey-hole and hanged like Saddam.
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Sheb

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3646 on: January 26, 2013, 10:35:35 am »

Well, SARS killed a few hundreds people. Spanish flu killed 20 to 50 millions.

Anyway, I think we should see what exactly you want to achieve with a bioweapon. No one want to start a pandemic that'll kill lots of people. Even so, it's actually hard to kill millions in rich, organized society like our own. Look at the bird flu: it had only killed a few birds and we were already having trouble finding enough space to stockpile all our tamiflu. That's how good we are at reacting to disease.

No, disease as weapons could work, but only in some case. That's why I find the Japanese exemple interesting. They were fighting a bloody war against insurgent in China, supplied from India, and they needed to disrupt that supply route, but it was too far behind the lines to be bombed effectively. What they did is spread plague flea over one linchpin city. Then they bombed it. Not so much to kill or destroy, but to make people flee in the countryside, carrying the plague with them.

Soon enough, the whole area was having its very own reenactement of the Black Death, and 500.000 people died. The no supply went that way for months.


What we see here is that diseases can be effective, but the context is important. Here, the Japanese provided both the germs and the environment for it to thrive (by scattering carriers and destroying health infrastrucutre). It's hard to imagine the same happening against the US for exemple. We could however imagine a groupe of African rebels causing and epidemic to distabilise an already weakened country.
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Owlbread

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3647 on: January 26, 2013, 11:20:03 am »

But the goals of the rebels would be exceedingly important. The rebels who took power in Azawad were secular nationalists, largely opposed/ambivalent to Islamic extremism and seeking to become a part of the international community. They were instead shat upon copiously by the UN, the EU and everyone, citing such nebulous expressions as the importance of "territorial integrity" (which basically means looking nice on a map) and "illegitimacy". Islamists then took power, now there's a brand new modern war complete with foreign intervention. Imagine if the Tuaregs had actually used biological warfare against Mali? How would the international community have responded then?
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Sheb

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3648 on: January 26, 2013, 11:24:43 am »

First of all, you'd need to prove they did it. And what if they had destroyed water infrastrucutre? That's going to cause a lot more death and disease than firing a couple Anthrax shell into Bamako.

The fact is we're so focused on bioweapons a WMD, we forgot that using disease as a weapon is often as easy as making doctors flee.

Of course, it's only part of a strategy, and probably not the most effective. After all, is bioweapon have almost enver been used, there is a reason. It's hard to do anything really brilliant with them.
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Another

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3649 on: January 26, 2013, 11:37:46 am »

Who says that people using bio-weapons will be the ones to take responsibility for that? Couldn't secret services of a first world nation through a few layers of proxies spread some ugly and not genetically modified from natural origin disease into some city's water supply to blame some local dictator for that? Do you really think they are above that kind of shit if they think they will get away with that?
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misko27

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3650 on: January 26, 2013, 11:45:23 am »

Who says that people using bio-weapons will be the ones to take responsibility for that? Couldn't secret services of a first world nation through a few layers of proxies spread some ugly and not genetically modified from natural origin disease into some city's water supply to blame some local dictator for that? Do you really think they are above that kind of shit if they think they will get away with that?
The US tried something similar with virus (computer) attack on Iran's nuclear facility. It escaped from a flash-drive to terrorize the internet. That was just a harmless computer virus. They know a bio-attack would increase the consequences for failure by millions and milions either neutrals in other countries, or their own damn citizens. Something to keep in mind, unless all hell has broken loose like with Assad, governments do not like their citizens dying in the millions.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3651 on: January 26, 2013, 11:50:32 am »

For the record, I wasn't saying that I think anyone's going to wage biological warfare.  Just that I don't find the Geneva Convention to have anything to do with that, really.  It only seems to be respected when convenient as a political mudsling.
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Sheb

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3652 on: January 26, 2013, 12:04:46 pm »

Yeah, but we stopped it. That's the whole point. We stopped it in a world much more densely populated and interconnected than the 20's were. We did not stop the Spanish Flu. Hell, "normal flu" is killing tens of thousands of people every year.

Saying "It would have killed us all if we hadn't done a thing is irrelevant. Each time you're taking a turn in your car, you're seconds from death. If you don't turn and the road do, you'll die. But you turn. Time and time again. Hence, driving ain't that dangerous, and SARS's main impact was giving work to bored journalists.
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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3653 on: January 26, 2013, 01:22:51 pm »

Just a statement here... Bioweapons have a rich and extended history of use. Plagued bodys by catapult,  smallpox blankets, poisoned wells. Most death throughout the ages from war was from disease. Mankind has known how to weaponize it for awhile. It's seen disuse recently, but don't count on that lasting.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3654 on: January 26, 2013, 01:27:51 pm »

it had a fairly long period where it had no visible symptoms (what's this called again?)
Incubation period.
But the goals of the rebels would be exceedingly important. The rebels who took power in Azawad were secular nationalists, largely opposed/ambivalent to Islamic extremism and seeking to become a part of the international community.
That is most definitely not what happened. The nationalists allied with Ansar Dine and MOJWA from the start. You might be able to pull off "ambivalent", but the fact remains that they were going to allow the Islamists to set up Sharia law in the new nation in exchange for their help.
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They were instead shat upon copiously by the UN, the EU and everyone, citing such nebulous expressions as the importance of "territorial integrity" (which basically means looking nice on a map) and "illegitimacy".
They are illegitimate. Mali is one of the only functioning democracies in West Africa, but did they attempt to use their access to the political system to gain autonomy? No, they allied with Islamist extremists and started killing people.
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Owlbread

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3655 on: January 26, 2013, 01:45:00 pm »

But the goals of the rebels would be exceedingly important. The rebels who took power in Azawad were secular nationalists, largely opposed/ambivalent to Islamic extremism and seeking to become a part of the international community.
That is most definitely not what happened. The nationalists allied with Ansar Dine and MOJWA from the start. You might be able to pull off "ambivalent", but the fact remains that they were going to allow the Islamists to set up Sharia law in the new nation in exchange for their help.
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They were instead shat upon copiously by the UN, the EU and everyone, citing such nebulous expressions as the importance of "territorial integrity" (which basically means looking nice on a map) and "illegitimacy".
They are illegitimate. Mali is one of the only functioning democracies in West Africa, but did they attempt to use their access to the political system to gain autonomy? No, they allied with Islamist extremists and started killing people.

The nationalists were allied with Ansar Dine from the start (MOJWA is another kettle of fish) but it was a very uneasy alliance created purely for convenience. The MNLA were obviously wary of Islamism from the start; you can see that in how they handled negotiations with Ansar Dine right up to the point that they formed an Islamist state. Though you could say that the MNLA's only goal was independence and they were prepared to make concessions if Islamism was the only way to get it; the proof is in the absolute failure of the Islamic state they pledged to create and the collapse in any dialogue with Ansar Dine. You should also take note that the concessions to form an Islamic state started to appear after utter dismissal from the diplomatic community.

To deal with the subject of MOJWA, the rebellion basically went like this; MNLA capture a town, MOJWA tear down the Azawadi flags and take it for themselves. That's it in a nutshell. MOJWA were not friends of the MNLA and are ideologically opposed to seperatism. This can even be seen in their name - The Movement for Oneness and Jihad in West Africa. "Oneness" is the key. They are also predominantly black African in membership, not Tuareg or Arab.

Mali is, was and remains to be a corrupt hellhole. It is known that Amadou Toumani Toure was in cahoots with Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb and encouraged them to take hold in Tuareg areas in exchange for not destabilizing the country. He is partly responsible for the Islamisation of the Tuareg youth, and after being ousted the country was governed by the military. That isn't the kind of environment that a democratic, peaceful nationalist movement will flourish in. The further problem lies in the structure of Mali; the political system provides very little ways to gain autonomy other than heavy lobbying/campaigning (which is largely ineffectual) and hoping that the majority party of the country decides to concede at least some level of autonomy to the North to the point that a nationalist government can be elected on a local level. That just isn't going to happen. In a corrupt, fraudulent country like Mali or Niger, your only option for independence is armed revolution. There must be a better way - but really, that's all there is for them. Perhaps this way hands will be burned on both sides and a democratic, peaceful nationalism/autonomism in the North may be given more acceptance. Who knows. Perhaps if they can get the Front for the National Liberation of Azawad in there, given that they seem to be more inclusive in supporting Arabs and other ethnic groups in the North, that may aid the autonomist/nationalist movement.

Scotland did not have the democratic right to declare itself independent or hold a referendum until this concession was made a few weeks ago. This is despite being considerably more autonomous than the Tuaregs could have hoped for in Mali or Niger or wherever they may be. When the agreement was given I was thanking myself endlessly that I wasn't in the position of a Malian Tuareg or a Chechen.

The Tuareg peoples are sitting on vast supplies of minerals and wealth that they cannot access and will never have control over because they have no state and are divided across different countries. Their wealth is one of the main reasons why we are getting so involved in Tuareg affairs, besides the potential for a renewal of Al-Qaeda/Islamist related activities.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 02:12:39 pm by Owlbread »
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3656 on: January 26, 2013, 04:19:57 pm »

i'm glad i managed to restart the discussion with a single line containing three links so here's some more information

i'll just extract your wisdom. :3
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Leafsnail

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3657 on: January 26, 2013, 06:53:32 pm »

Most death throughout the ages from war was from disease.
This is true, but most of those deaths would probably be as a result of collapsing infrastructure and poor hygeine caused by the war rather than deliberate bio-warfare (such as the massive flu outbreak following WWI).
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scriver

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3658 on: January 26, 2013, 10:10:59 pm »

What's scary stuff for you? Spanish flu killed tens of millions across the world. It's hard for a disease to be more scary.
SARS?

If we hadn't eradicated it... Highly infectious, 1/10 people with it died, it had a fairly long period where it had no visible symptoms (what's this called again?), which meant it was even easier to infect other people...
Well, SARS killed a few hundreds people. Spanish flu killed 20 to 50 millions.

I know it's a tangent, but I have to clear this up: SARS wasn't scary because of what it was. It was scary because of what had the possibility to mutate into - a high casualty flu carried by bird hosts which travel the whole world in massive numbers and that we would have no way to stop (and even if we did that would mean deliberately fucking up our eco-systems), and which also happen to be the group of animals that live the closest to humans in the largest numbers, second only to rats in both aspects.

Media chose to fear-hype SARS itself, but they were focusing on the wrong thing.
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Love, scriver~

PanH

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #3659 on: January 26, 2013, 11:32:24 pm »

Most death throughout the ages from war was from disease.
This is true, but most of those deaths would probably be as a result of collapsing infrastructure and poor hygeine caused by the war rather than deliberate bio-warfare (such as the massive flu outbreak following WWI).
I've heard about an anthropologist (I think) that had a theory about why the Europe became the dominant continent. There was the fact that it was all in latitude with Asia, etc, which permitted an adaptation of technology, etc.
But another off his point was that, there was lots of diseases in Europe, that came from everywhere. Thus, the europeans were more resistant to disease.
And if you look at colonization, it makes quite a bit of sense, because most deaths caused by colonization were caused by germs (brought voluntarily or unvoluntarily). A bit like Europeans used diseases as biological weapons, without even wanting so.
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