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[DJ]

If you can't overthrow the government but don't want to support it with your labour, emigrate.

Moving to a foreign lands leaving behind your family's legacy and other sorts? Not much get the chance, we aren't gonna see the exodus we had back in the early 1900s for America ever again.

Exactly. People were saying how they **can't* do anything, I'm just pointing out that they don *want* to do anything, and are thus willing accomplices to their government's crimes.

[webber]

You're still talking about NATO there? 'Cause it makes no sense to me. :p

Yes. Though the part about "making you guilty" was inspired by the last two pages of this thread.

To Kogan Loloklam and his supporters: you are postulating the doctrine that:

1) there are no innocent civilians;
2) the people of the country are always responsible for government actions;
3) collateral losses are justified by the great purpose.

Congratulations, you are officially supporting terrorism.

[Phmcw]

You're still talking about NATO there? 'Cause it makes no sense to me. :p

Yes. Though the part about "making you guilty" was inspired by the last two pages of this thread.

To Kogan Loloklam and his supporters: you are postulating the doctrine that:

1) there are no innocent civilians;
2) the people of the country are always responsible for government actions;
3) collateral losses are justified by the great purpose.

Congratulations, you are officially supporting terrorism.

or every war ever.

"Governments derive their power from their citizens. " is the false premise. Everything derived from there is therefore false.

Now collateral victim are just that : victims of a greater purpose. You may no realize it, but you make some all the time : toddlers crushed by a car are collateral victims of fast transportation, as are asmathic poeples that die each years form the pollution. Those death could actually be avoided, provided we make the (huge) effort to develop safer and less pollutant transportation.
However we don't feel like it, apparently.

The war in Yugoslavia was a bit shady : as usual the country was run by an USSR approved dictator and was ripe with resources.
That, and NATO fight dirty (bombing hospital, civilian column...)

I think that war can be justified in some case, provided that either national security is at extreme risk in which case we are in the sad case of a total war (say, china think they can take on NATO) or to stop a repression, provided we take extreme care on what we do.

Once again, I may be wrong, but the war in Libya seems to have gone ok ,while the war in Iraq is a showcase of what you shouldn't do ever.

[DJ]

Now collateral victim are just that : victims of a greater purpose. You may no realize it, but you make some all the time : toddlers crushed by a car are collateral victims of fast transportation, as are asmathic poeples that die each years form the pollution. Those death could actually be avoided, provided we make the (huge) effort to develop safer and less pollutant transportation.
However we don't feel like it, apparently.

Lulz. Must be really nice in your fantasy land of infinite resources.

[Vector]

Realize that you basically given up your first and second amendment rights, then again the last "violent throw" against the government was during the 1700s during our turmoil years under the Articles of the Confederation. I can't stand by and watch my freedoms strip from me slowly, even with my family's and my military stint. Is it wrong to use violence to show my anger? Sure, but fear has been used to change hearts and will likely continue.

You need to realize that I'm not talking to you, or anyone else.  I'm doing what I should do, not necessarily what anyone else should do.

[Phmcw]

Now collateral victim are just that : victims of a greater purpose. You may no realize it, but you make some all the time : toddlers crushed by a car are collateral victims of fast transportation, as are asmathic poeples that die each years form the pollution. Those death could actually be avoided, provided we make the (huge) effort to develop safer and less pollutant transportation.
However we don't feel like it, apparently.

Lulz. Must be really nice in your fantasy land of infinite resources.

Yeah, we've got it better than your land of all or nothing. Promoting mass transportation more, for instance, or hardening legislation on car emission, would reduce the number of death, thus the collateral damage of transportation.

Seriously, how could you understand it any other way?

[DJ]

You were implying a lot more than that. Between the lines I've read that pretty much everything that is wrong with the world can be fixed without trade-offs if only people cared. I guess I'm just bad at reading between lines.

[Tellemurius]

This point im confused to where we are and can we go back to the OP?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Tunisia is holding an election, 70% turnout. The only downside is that their most conservative party is expected to win, but at least they aren't like the Taliban.

[Kogan Loloklam]

If you can't overthrow the government but don't want to support it with your labour, emigrate.

DAMNIT! That would be an exception to guilt.

I've been proven wrong.

Congratulations, you are officially supporting terrorism.

Nope. Terrorism is the systematic use of terror, especially as a means of coercion. Terrorism is a way for an individual to fight their government yes, but it isn't the only way. For me to be supporting terrorism I would have to support a very specific way of violent overthrow of a government. I am not even supporting the overthrow of a government, I am just saying if you aren't doing it, you aren't innocent.

Just talking about sheer scale, the figures people outside America cite as to our evilness and unsuitability as the world police is absolutely laughable. Then you look at local rates for the same things and it becomes doubly laughable. Then you consider the kinds of civilian casualty figures these same countries who hadn't devoted literally billions of dollars to refinement of weapons to minimize loss of life to the most absolute possible and it is no longer laughable. It's deadly frightening. I can go on explaining what I am saying in page after page of examples, historical and modern. I could talk about the Lockerbie bombing and compare it to casualty rates in Libya. I could talk about how desire for individual self preservation is how most governments get their mandate to operate as they do. I could even explain how a group of people who take over half a country really does constitute a legitimate revolutionary movement no matter where their funding comes from, but ultimately it's a waste of time AND off topic.

Does anyone know when the military in Egypt have for their next deadline of when they will relinquish power? Also how do we know that the Tunisia elections are fair?

(Edit: Duh. Must have missed "Thousands of observers monitored Tunisia’s first elections since an uprising overthrew the longtime leader and set off anti-government revolts around the Middle East." in the first readthrough)

[Sheb]

As for Egypt, the military is now saying that first there will have to be election for a Constituant Assembly, then the constitution will have to be made and approved, then presidential election held and only then will they step down.

Which is another way to say that they're not going to give back power ever.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

That's pretty stupid of them. They'll cause an armed revolt against them if they delay elections indefinitely.

[Sheb]

Well, I guess they hope that the protesters will be split between the one that want change and the one that are okay with delaying it, and that everyone will have forgotten about it by 2013.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

That sounds like the standard dictator strategy, and we saw how well that worked out for Mubarak.

[Kogan Loloklam]

Yea, but Mubarak was kind of brought down by the military, not the populace. If I recall, the population just stared at him across the fence until the military collected him and kicked him out.