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Author Topic: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!  (Read 364989 times)

nenjin

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #2295 on: August 23, 2011, 07:38:46 am »

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Quick confession: I was a flag-waving redneck conservative at the time (and all of about 14 or 15). I was one of those people who actually thought protesters should be shot for treason.  ::)

So my question to you would be, how many drugs did you have to do to become the person you are today? :P
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RedKing

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #2296 on: August 23, 2011, 08:50:02 am »

Quote
Quick confession: I was a flag-waving redneck conservative at the time (and all of about 14 or 15). I was one of those people who actually thought protesters should be shot for treason.  ::)

So my question to you would be, how many drugs did you have to do to become the person you are today? :P
LOL...remarkably, none. I was already starting to grow out of that phase by the time I graduated HS, and then college really stomped out the last vestiges of it. Funny how education tends to make you less of a close-minded asshat.  :P
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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #2297 on: August 23, 2011, 09:11:35 am »

That was the Gulf War 1 motto. And it was not true even then.

At the time beginning of the first gulf war, Iraq was what? the #4 (maybe even #3) military power on earth?
Stronger than UK, France, Germany and China? I highly doubt that. Hell, I bet that Best Korea would wipe the floor with them.

As for the whole Islamic Law thing, there's a LOT of versions of it, and some are quite liberal. It might just mean token respect to the Islamic cultural tradition, something like "one nation under God" in USA's pledge of allegiance.
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counting

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #2298 on: August 23, 2011, 10:23:12 am »

That was the Gulf War 1 motto. And it was not true even then.

At the time beginning of the first gulf war, Iraq was what? the #4 (maybe even #3) military power on earth?
Stronger than UK, France, Germany and China? I highly doubt that. Hell, I bet that Best Korea would wipe the floor with them.

As for the whole Islamic Law thing, there's a LOT of versions of it, and some are quite liberal. It might just mean token respect to the Islamic cultural tradition, something like "one nation under God" in USA's pledge of allegiance.

As someone who still remembers Iran-Iraq war (I feel so old right now :-\), the Iran army was stronger through out the war, even with mass draft in Iraq. (Iran is still quite powerful in central Asia, and tried to build nuke recently, remembered?). And India / Pakistan are/were both stronger then and now (both have nukes). Turkey as the Iraq northern neighbor is a traditional regional power as well and they have U.S. military support. Hell, even the Taiwan army before the downsize claimed to have 600,000 standing army (and we got fairly good air force in the region in the 90s)

I think internationally Iraq in 90s at it's best, was still no where near top 10 in the world. (Probably with in the 20 group). Let's count, U.S, Russia, China, U.K, France, Germany, Iran, Japan, North/South Korea, India, Pakistan, Ukraine (They inherited nearly 1 million troops from USSR and nukes), a lot of the second line European powers. I think the Iraq army was only as powerful as Turkey and Egypt army in the region of Middle East. I think even Israel would be able to withstand Iraq at that time (especially everyone thought Israel has nukes already)
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Nadaka

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #2299 on: August 23, 2011, 10:36:23 am »

Iraq had 4 times the armor strength of Iran at the end of the Iran/Iraq war and a modern airforce that included Mig-29 and other planes that were at the time close to state of the art.
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olemars

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #2300 on: August 23, 2011, 11:09:42 am »

Watching the overview of the Bab al-Aziziya compund and the fight for it on sky. It's serious endboss material. 6km^2 of bunkers, watchtowers and underground complexes. 3 layers of reinforced walls.

Apparently they've breached it from at least one side. The Sky reporter is right up against the wall and they're firing off rockets right next to her, trying to get through the wall while defenders are shooting back with heavy MG's.  It's really weird to watch this shit live.

fakeedit: Rebels have reached the famous golden fist crushing a US jet in the center of the compound. Looks like they're happy about that.


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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #2301 on: August 23, 2011, 11:15:31 am »

So, what are the odds that they're going to blow up Gaddafi's precious statue? I hope they get some video of that if they do.
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RedKing

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #2302 on: August 23, 2011, 11:27:10 am »

So, what are the odds that they're going to blow up Gaddafi's precious statue? I hope they get some video of that if they do.
Not yet, but they're kicking the shit out of statues of Qaddafi himself.

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Zangi

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #2303 on: August 23, 2011, 11:36:31 am »

So, what are the odds that they're going to blow up Gaddafi's precious statue? I hope they get some video of that if they do.
Not yet, but they're kicking the shit out of statues of Qaddafi himself.
Note to self: When I become dictator and subsequently get dethroned, rig all my statues to blow up when dismantled.  That'll learn em.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #2304 on: August 23, 2011, 11:41:03 am »

So, what are the odds that they're going to blow up Gaddafi's precious statue? I hope they get some video of that if they do.
Not yet, but they're kicking the shit out of statues of Qaddafi himself.
Note to self: When I become dictator and subsequently get dethroned, rig all my statues to blow up when dismantled.  That'll learn em.
If I knew I was going to get dethroned and was an evil dictator, I'd just lose it and try to bomb the.....whole.....country into......oblivion.....

That clever bastard.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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olemars

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #2305 on: August 23, 2011, 11:53:20 am »

A lucky looter at the central compound just scored a solid gold AK. Came up to the cameraman to show it off.

edit:

edit: Raw live feed much of the time here.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 12:04:48 pm by olemars »
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Zangi

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #2306 on: August 23, 2011, 12:13:19 pm »

A lucky looter at the central compound just scored a solid gold AK. Came up to the cameraman to show it off.

edit:

edit: Raw live feed much of the time here.
Better hope the new government doesn't decide to take looted stuff back. Would be great to show the kids.

"Boy, I got this rifle here after we overthrew the Gaddafi gov't.  I also personally shot 50100 of Gaddafi's soldiers myself too."
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counting

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #2307 on: August 23, 2011, 12:25:16 pm »

Iraq had 4 times the armor strength of Iran at the end of the Iran/Iraq war and a modern airforce that included Mig-29 and other planes that were at the time close to state of the art.

I remembered that till 1987, although Iran always seemed to lose more men, but since they have larger men resources, they still winning most battles and push into southern Iraq. And even with superior weaponry from foreign aids (a lot to thank the U.S, and the USSR), Iraqi force failed to take back the occupied cities and regions from Iran. (Back then I thought that it's a good example of conscript soldiers with superior weapons are no match for seasonal soldiers with brave heart.)

We all thought at the beginning that Iran was going to force a humiliated defeat to Iraq (in the early 80s), but things suddenly changed in 1988. Starting from the famous missiles attack that latter the chemical weapons. This theme will echo in the following First Gulf War. (They are major fears before the First Gulf War, and later the remarkable missiles interception rate of U.S Patriot to the Iraq Scud was a humiliation for Iraqis). And their physiological effect was the successful factors than traditional armor forces and failed air battles from both side. Neither side were able to maintain air superiority with their imported expensive fighters in desert environment. The tanks failed very often in the desert too, which gives U.S. a lot of warning and preparations for dealing with sands and operating armor vehicles in the desert. And Iran picked the worst target with the most powerful U.S. Navy to challenge, later even the USSR. It was a huge mistake. Iran simply could not withstand enemies from all sides and the fears of chemical attacks carried by missiles to their civilians cripple their fight wills.

(Which overthrown my believes that technologies alone can not win a war. But apparently if you can acquired light-year ahead weaponry, and denied your opponent, they sure can force a victory. If you act quickly enough before your enemy be able to counter them. Like the German tanks in the early WWII with previously unthinkable tactics, ethical one or not. In the long run though, I don't think so.)

So it's not the size of their armor strength or air strength determine the outcome, and their army strength. It's the fear ending the Iran-Iraq war. And it reversed in less than half a year. I think it doesn't prove Iraqi regular army are any better than Iranian regular army. (I think it proved the opposite that Iraq can't win a regular battle with Iran, but only through physiological effects from missiles and chemical weapons). And with years of embargo, It was a miracle that Iran still able to withstand the war. And at the end of the war, Iran lost most of their precious equipments when retreating from southern Iraq. Without the ability to replenish them, it's no surprised that at the end, the difference in equipments is huge.

But when the war is over, the embargo didn't end, hence Iran quickly decided to expand it's domestic military industries, and was able to re-armed itself since the 90s with home-made tanks, APCs, fighters, and even submarines. An the Iran never forget the missiles and made loads of them itself. And probably it's ability to make its own nukes very soon. So I think perhaps the Iranian standing army after the Iran-Iraq war was weaken and behind Iraq equipment-wise, but Iran military as an entity and a whole was still more powerful than Iraq at the time. (You lost your knife in a fight and your opponent get a shiny new knife, doesn't make you a weaker fighter. Especially when you have the ability to make weapons and armors yourself, and your opponent have to rely on others.)

I am not opposing that the Iraq standing army is a bit stronger than Iran standing army at the time of Desert Storm, but it's clearly that Iraq with it's mostly conscript soldiers and a lot of imported and unfit mismatch weaponry is far less powerful than most let to believe. And without their only secret weapon - chemical warhead missiles, they were just easy pickings. (Ranking wise it's still far less powerful than the top 10.)
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Currency is not excessive, but a necessity.
The stark assumption:
Individuals trade with each other only through the intermediation of specialist traders called: shops.
Nelson and Winter:
The challenge to an evolutionary formation is this: it must provide an analysis that at least comes close to matching the power of the neoclassical theory to predict and illuminate the macro-economic patterns of growth

olemars

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #2308 on: August 23, 2011, 12:36:18 pm »

Hmm. The chap who led the assault on the Bab al-Aziziya compound and is now a celebrated hero apparently has a history as a militant islamist (Abdul Hakim Belhaj or something). A bit troubling since he already seems to be popular, while the NTC leadership is still holed up in Benghazi.

fakeedit: They found Gaddafi's golf buggy. The humiliation is complete.

realedit:
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 12:49:26 pm by olemars »
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RedKing

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya
« Reply #2309 on: August 23, 2011, 12:45:16 pm »

Hmm. The chap who led the assault on the BAB al-Aziziya compound and is now a celebrated hero apparently has a history as a militant islamist (Abdul Hakim Belhaj or something). A bit troubling since he already seems to be popular, while the NTC leadership is still holed up in Benghazi.

fakeedit: They found Gaddafi's golf buggy. The humiliation is complete.
Hmm. And the NTC just made a statement saying it would be best if opposition fighters do not engage in violence or revenge but focus on reconciliation. Which is technically true, but astonishingly tone-deaf. These guys just fought their way into the Death Star and you're telling them to give the Emperor a hug instead of blowing it up. That just doesn't play well in the heat of the moment, especially coming from guys who have been watching the whole thing on TV from Benghazi instead of being on the front lines.  :-\
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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
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