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Author Topic: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!  (Read 373482 times)

Rose

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Re: Egypt and the world
« Reply #690 on: February 12, 2011, 07:34:10 am »

Quote
These are unacceptable and wholly unnecessary crimes, it is not "right" not to punish them severely. But in this case going through with what is "right" has severe negative consequences, hence it is a poor choice of action.

You make it sound like infinite punishment is morally justified for even the most minor of crimes. If I kick someone in the shin out of anger, I'm violating his rights; do I deserve to get put down for that too?

Oh, not at all, he deserves maximum punishment.
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Sir Pseudonymous

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Re: Egypt and the world
« Reply #691 on: February 12, 2011, 07:39:31 am »

Those are all valid arguments, but really fall more under the practical considerations which I already believe outweigh the "moral" side of the issue.

What makes you think that practical social considerations don't inform morality? Of course they do.
Morality is either an absolute measure, or useless as a metric. What is pragmatic shifts with circumstances, and is by necessity far more complex then the knee-jerks and gut-feelings of morality. This is why pragmatism should always outweigh moral considerations, because it considers benefits and consequences rather than dictating a rigid, context-less course of action based on principles.

Quote
Quote
These are unacceptable and wholly unnecessary crimes, it is not "right" not to punish them severely. But in this case going through with what is "right" has severe negative consequences, hence it is a poor choice of action.

You make it sound like infinite punishment is morally justified for even the most minor of crimes. If I kick someone in the shin out of anger, I'm violating his rights; do I deserve to get put down for that too?
Anger is an impairment. Someone acting out of anger will necessarily be acting irrationally in all the but the rarest of circumstances. While they are still accountable for their actions, it is a mitigating factor that says the right thing to do would usually be to provide treatment or a lessened penalty, except for the more egregious examples. It's a great deal different than putting a gun to someone's head and demanding money or kicking down someone's door to steal their TV in cold blood.


Funny how this discussion came about through making an example for why what is "morally" right is not always the best course of action, in the context that it might not be the wisest decision to set a precedent of confiscating the assets of deposed dictators, since it means they have all the more to lose if they lose power, and will thus be more willing to engage in more brutal repression of their citizens if they detect a whiff of revolutionary sentiment...
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DJ

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Re: Egypt and the world
« Reply #692 on: February 12, 2011, 07:47:34 am »

Guys, I come to this thread to keep up to date with the events in Egypt >:(
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G-Flex

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Re: Egypt and the world
« Reply #693 on: February 12, 2011, 07:50:48 am »

Morality is either an absolute measure, or useless as a metric. What is pragmatic shifts with circumstances, and is by necessity far more complex then the knee-jerks and gut-feelings of morality. This is why pragmatism should always outweigh moral considerations, because it considers benefits and consequences rather than dictating a rigid, context-less course of action based on principles.

Principles can consider context, benefits, and consequences. In fact, the pragmatic principles you're exhibiting right now are part of a moral framework. Don't pretend that morality/ethics can't consider circumstances or incorporate practical concerns just because your own cognitive dissonance (or whatever is going on in your head) prevents you from reconciling your bizarre, absolutist "morality" with the way the real world functions.

If your "morality" is so hypersimplistic and black-and-white that it cannot possibly account for the majority of real-life scenarios and has to be discarded in favor of some ill-defined "practical" system (FYI, what's "practical" depends on what you're actually trying to accomplish, which in turn depends on what you think is "right" in the first place), then there's a problem, as most of us have probably learned to move on from that sort of grade-school hideously absolutist morality that we learn as small children.

Quote
Quote
You make it sound like infinite punishment is morally justified for even the most minor of crimes. If I kick someone in the shin out of anger, I'm violating his rights; do I deserve to get put down for that too?
Anger is an impairment. Someone acting out of anger will necessarily be acting irrationally in all the but the rarest of circumstances. While they are still accountable for their actions, it is a mitigating factor that says the right thing to do would usually be to provide treatment or a lessened penalty, except for the more egregious examples. It's a great deal different than putting a gun to someone's head and demanding money or kicking down someone's door to steal their TV in cold blood.

Okay, so... what if I didn't do it out of anger? What if I was just being a jerk? Why doesn't that deserve maximum possible punishment? And why does stealing someone's TV deserve maximum punishment when there are far worse crimes?

Seriously, talking about "stealing [a] TV in cold blood" and acting like it deserves the death penalty says to me that your priorities are extremely out of whack. If your fucking TV means so much to you that you equate stealing it with first-degree murder (and then some), then you need to reexamine your life.


Quote
Funny how this discussion came about through making an example for why what is "morally" right is not always the best course of action, in the context that it might not be the wisest decision to set a precedent of confiscating the assets of deposed dictators, since it means they have all the more to lose if they lose power, and will thus be more willing to engage in more brutal repression of their citizens if they detect a whiff of revolutionary sentiment...

Then it isn't morally right because of that potential outcome. It's not "morally right but still wrong"; it's just wrong (if you buy that argument in the first place).

"Morality" doesn't mean being able to come up with a perfect solution to everything. It also doesn't mean coming up with solutions that are benevolent in the short-term even if they're malevolent in the long-term. Sometimes it means short-term harm for long-term gain (or for lesser long-term harm).
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 08:09:42 am by G-Flex »
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Leafsnail

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Re: Egypt and the world
« Reply #694 on: February 12, 2011, 09:18:49 am »

So um... about that Egypt place.

Do people think the military will actually hold free elections come September?  I admit I'm starting to slightly worry about it.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Egypt and the world
« Reply #695 on: February 12, 2011, 09:22:19 am »

So um... about that Egypt place.

Do people think the military will actually hold free elections come September?  I admit I'm starting to slightly worry about it.
The military isn't stupid, which they proved by not siding with Mubarak. I imagine they'll go through with the free elections.

Oh, I figure I might mention, two days ago a political party formed in Saudi Arabia. The nation's only political party, seeing as they're illegal. It exists to support the end of the monarchy and for the installation of a democratic government. Time will tell how successful this venture is.
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Darvi

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Re: Egypt and the world
« Reply #696 on: February 12, 2011, 09:27:49 am »

An anti-government party? Now that's a party that I would vote for!
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Taricus

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Re: Egypt and the world
« Reply #697 on: February 12, 2011, 09:29:43 am »

An anti-government party? Now that's a party that I would vote for!

What happens if they win?
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Darvi

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Re: Egypt and the world
« Reply #698 on: February 12, 2011, 09:31:11 am »

New government of course. I just like the fact that there's a party whose main agenda is opposing the current government.
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Taricus

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Re: Egypt and the world
« Reply #699 on: February 12, 2011, 09:32:09 am »

Ah, right Anti Current government party.
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Darvi

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Re: Egypt and the world
« Reply #700 on: February 12, 2011, 09:33:28 am »

Ya, that's more accurate. A generally anarchic party would be an oxymoron.
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scriver

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Re: Egypt and the world
« Reply #701 on: February 12, 2011, 09:48:39 am »

That, of course, depends on which definition of "party" we are using ;)
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Egypt and the world
« Reply #702 on: February 12, 2011, 10:12:11 am »

Yeah, because I've seen some generally anarchic parties in my time :P
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Virex

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Re: Egypt and the world
« Reply #703 on: February 12, 2011, 10:25:16 am »

So um... about that Egypt place.

Do people think the military will actually hold free elections come September?  I admit I'm starting to slightly worry about it.
The military isn't stupid, which they proved by not siding with Mubarak. I imagine they'll go through with the free elections.
I think you're contradicting yourself there.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Egypt and the world
« Reply #704 on: February 12, 2011, 10:45:45 am »

So um... about that Egypt place.

Do people think the military will actually hold free elections come September?  I admit I'm starting to slightly worry about it.
The military isn't stupid, which they proved by not siding with Mubarak. I imagine they'll go through with the free elections.
I think you're contradicting yourself there.
The Egyptians overthrew one dictator, and military or no military, they could probably overthrow another. It would be foolish to set up a millitary state.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.
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