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Author Topic: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!  (Read 372500 times)

GlyphGryph

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6045 on: July 25, 2014, 09:42:01 am »

But that source doesn't deal with Fatah charter nor with Fatah ability to get themselves shot out of gaza. my argument was that simply giving Fatah free reign would lead to the same result as happened in gaza, mainly, Fatah overthrown by Hamas.
Except another explanation to this would be that israel keep sending funds to hamas as to not totally collapse the economics of gaza, despite those funds mostly going to funding offensive actions against israel.

Yeah, that's a good point. I just read up on the Fatah charter; it appears it was almost changed in the 90's. It's too bad that it wasn't.

As for the second, I will try to look at it that way in the future. It is hard sometimes when people are dieing not to look at one's fellow humanity in a worse light in even distantly related things because of it, and I fear perhaps I fell victim to that and I apologize if in the process of my argument if I argued as the devil's advocate and not even intentionally where it may sometimes be beneficial as a constructive tool.
Except that Fatah has confirmed, multiple goddamn times, that they recognize Israel's right to exist and that the charter is "inoperative and no longer valid." Seriously, anyone bringing up the Fatah charter is intentionally trying to muddy the debate, it's about as relevant as bringing up the fact that the founding Zionists were absolutely horrible terrorists that indiscriminately murdered civilians around the world and were far worse than Hamas is now. Because it's irrelevant history. It might provide some historical context for why things are the way they are, but thats all.

Quote
Yasser Arafat, the late PLO Chairman and leader of Fatah, wrote in a Sep. 9, 1993 letter to former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin prior to the signing of the 1993 Oslo Declaration of Principles:

    "The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

    The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

    The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

    The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators

    In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant."

It's good to remember that burningpet basically works directly from the propaganda playbook, and his sole goal in this thread as near I could tell is to defend Israel's actions at all costs, not to educate or clarify. I'm sure he's continuing his tirades about how terrible I am to talk about things I've heard that haven't yet been proven, but he's shown time and again a willingness to repeatedly state things that have been proven false, spin things as hard as possible, and double down on anything that's obviously not true. Basically everything he claims should be taken with a grain of salt - it might contain a seed of truth, but the conclusions he draws are drawn to serve a purpose, not because they reflect reality.

Everything I say should be taken with a grain of salt as well, admittedly. I'm no expert on the conflict, and I often pull from sources that might not yet have the full story.

Yeah, I can't argue with that. My opinion as quoted was wrong. I will leave it upon the internet in shame.
Thanks martinuzz.
I'm not sure how his quote made your opinion wrong, but... Just a reminder that Chomsky is pretty much hated by Israel, and Israel's propaganda department has dedicated a large amount of resources to undermining him and attempting to destroy his credibility, because he's a Jew who is public about his opposition to many of Israel's worst policies. He has, in fact, written several books about the conflict, and they are worth reading.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 09:49:42 am by GlyphGryph »
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Wolfhunter107

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6046 on: July 25, 2014, 10:25:17 am »

English translation:
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.il/2014/07/hamas-al-qassam-offices-are-next-to.html#.U9JLvPmSy2X
Quote
There are many journalists that have been hanging around Al Shifa hospital. Very few have mentioned that the terrorist wing of Hamas is even present, let alone set up next to the emergency room.

Is it because they are pro-Hamas? Is it Stockholm syndrome? Or is their hate of Israel so deep that anything that supports the IDF's assertions of Hamas war crimes is considered off limits?
Or, rather than those incredibly implausible explanations, perhaps this article was total bollocks and was taken down for that reason

How about no, scott?


http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=6098
This, this is fatah.

Three, non israeli experts talk about this situation in a larger context. sorry, its in hebrew.
http://www.calcalist.co.il/local/articles/0,7340,L-3636739,00.html
You're delusional.
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Dutchling

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6047 on: July 25, 2014, 10:27:19 am »

What's with the non-Israeli experts talking in Hebrew?
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palsch

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6048 on: July 25, 2014, 11:13:20 am »

What's with the non-Israeli experts talking in Hebrew?
It's an Israeli site, so I'm assuming they translated the interviews?

Anyway, ten seconds with google translate identifies the experts as Matthew Levitt (twitter), Hussein Ibish (twitter, blog) and Richard Haass (twitter, Daily Show interview). Wouldn't want to risk detailed analysis from the translation (although it isn't tooooooo bad), but all of them have writings elsewhere people can easily access.
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Zangi

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6049 on: July 25, 2014, 02:55:54 pm »

*Stuff about collective punishment*
Yea... what you really need to make this work is to reward people/groups for reporting punishable acts.

*Actually, is there anyone in the local area that Israel hasn't managed to piss off? I've forgotten at this point.

Israelis tend to have that annoying trait of being jewish. so yeah, there is no one israel hasn't managed to piss off in the local area, primarily thanks to that quality.
It is pretty dishonest to argue that this is the only motivation for why most of Israel's neighbors don't like Israel.  It paints its enemies in the worst light, while not addressing any of the valid motivators behind the hate.
It is a 'good' excuse.  Just yell "Discrimination!" and continue being a jackass, because why else are they questioning/hate you?  Because discrimination.
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burningpet

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6050 on: July 25, 2014, 03:35:14 pm »

What's with the non-Israeli experts talking in Hebrew?

I'll try my best to communicate the meat of their arguments:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Except that Fatah has confirmed, multiple goddamn times, that they recognize Israel's right to exist and that the charter is "inoperative and no longer valid." Seriously, anyone bringing up the Fatah charter is intentionally trying to muddy the debate, it's about as relevant...

First, why keep it then? second, why is their mufti, along with many other of their more religious branches keep making the same statements repeatedly?

Now, let me explain something that might clear things up. the subtle difference is that fatah never, under any circumstances, nor arafat, nor anyone else bar perhaps jordan and egypt (not even sure they had), recognized israel as a jewish state. what fatah recognized, is that there's a state called israel, and that they think, should allow more than 5 million palestines and its descendants return to it, making palestines the majority of the state population, and defacto annexing it as a palestinian state. this is a subtle (i think its not, its a very clear cut distinction between the two recognitions) difference that in the heart of the recent negotiations. obviously, israel was set and recognized by the UN as a jewish state, and that's the way it should remain.

It is pretty dishonest to argue that this is the only motivation for why most of Israel's neighbors don't like Israel.  It paints its enemies in the worst light, while not addressing any of the valid motivators behind the hate.
It is a 'good' excuse.  Just yell "Discrimination!" and continue being a jackass, because why else are they questioning/hate you?  Because discrimination.

Remind me again, please, what did israel do that made all the arabs countries invade it in 1948? thank you.

In other news, israel just agreed to a 12 hour humanitarian truce. during which israel will not shoot nor shell, but will continue to unearth the offensive tunnels. this truce go into effect from tomorrow at 07:00 israel/gaza time.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 03:36:57 pm by burningpet »
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GavJ

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6051 on: July 25, 2014, 03:56:05 pm »

Quote
making palestines the majority of the state population, and defacto annexing it as a palestinian state.
Sure, but if and only if:
1) All of them actually go there...
2) You use a stupid (for this situation in particular) pure majority government structure, versus any of the wide variety of other systems designed specifically to protect conflicting minority interests. For example, America's bicameral system -- two houses, must agree, one doe majority of states and one does majority of population. This could require bipartisanism and not simple majority trouncing in a Israel/Palestinian state by the same mechanisms.
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Mr. Strange

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6053 on: July 25, 2014, 04:09:25 pm »

...did you just Godwin Bomb this thread?
Godwin Nuke. When you need to be absolutely sure.
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Then you get cities like Paris where you should basically just kill yourself already.

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10ebbor10

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6054 on: July 25, 2014, 04:23:42 pm »

Quote
making palestines the majority of the state population, and defacto annexing it as a palestinian state.
Sure, but if and only if:
1) All of them actually go there...
2) You use a stupid (for this situation in particular) pure majority government structure, versus any of the wide variety of other systems designed specifically to protect conflicting minority interests. For example, America's bicameral system -- two houses, must agree, one doe majority of states and one does majority of population. This could require bipartisanism and not simple majority trouncing in a Israel/Palestinian state by the same mechanisms.
I wouldn't use the US as an example of a functioning democratic system. I mean, it's FPTP system and bipartisan system ensure that minority parties are igored.
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burningpet

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6055 on: July 25, 2014, 04:25:12 pm »

...did you just Godwin Bomb this thread?

EDIT: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28494081

Probably been linked. Israel rejected a seven-day peace treaty that the US drew up.

Israel AND hamas. and yes, israel will not accept a truce up until it can make sure it destroyed every last one of the offensive tunnels. estimations is that we are currently at around half.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6056 on: July 25, 2014, 04:26:20 pm »

Now, let me explain something that might clear things up. the subtle difference is that fatah never, under any circumstances, nor arafat, nor anyone else bar perhaps jordan and egypt (not even sure they had), recognized israel as a jewish state. what fatah recognized, is that there's a state called israel, and that they think, should allow more than 5 million palestines and its descendants return to it, making palestines the majority of the state population, and defacto annexing it as a palestinian state. this is a subtle (i think its not, its a very clear cut distinction between the two recognitions) difference that in the heart of the recent negotiations. obviously, israel was set and recognized by the UN as a jewish state, and that's the way it should remain.
Conceding that would force them to accept an apartheid regime (where they are not recognized fully as Israelis) for as long as there is no independent state of Palestine.  I can see why they do not.

Remind me again, please, what did israel do that made all the arabs countries invade it in 1948? thank you.
Being a newly formed state that threatened to push Palestinian-Arabs off their native lands?  I don't think it's easy to frame that conflict in terms of right and wrong but saying it was purely due to anti-semitism is ridiculous.

In other news, israel just agreed to a 12 hour humanitarian truce. during which israel will not shoot nor shell, but will continue to unearth the offensive tunnels. this truce go into effect from tomorrow at 07:00 israel/gaza time.
Have you got an article on this?  All I've heard is that Israel rejected a similar week-long offer from the US.

http://www.jspacenews.com/breaking-israel-rejected-ceasefire-israeli-media-reporting/
(this is the most absurdly pro-Israel source I could find, still agrees they rejected it)

Also I'd like to ask in what possible way is "We'll keep breaking your stuff/killing people and keep our guys in your territory, you will stop fighting back" a truce?  Especially since we all now know that the process of destroying a tunnel involves levelling all the buildings around it and killing a bunch of nearby civilians.  I'm really struggling to see why anyone, yet alone an extremist group like Hamas, would accept a deal like that.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 04:40:10 pm by Leafsnail »
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burningpet

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6057 on: July 25, 2014, 04:31:42 pm »

...did you just Godwin Bomb this thread?
Godwin Nuke. When you need to be absolutely sure.

I'd say this is more characteristic of modern Japanese immigration policies that maintain there shouldn't be certain religious immigration, than nazi ones, that, you know tried to systematically kill us all.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6058 on: July 25, 2014, 04:35:39 pm »

Firstly other countries being racist doesn't mean you can be too, secondly there was no mass displacement of Muslims from Japan during living memory so it's not comparable
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burningpet

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6059 on: July 25, 2014, 04:54:04 pm »

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/25/us-mideast-gaza-pause-idUSKBN0FU27420140725

Good news. Hamas also accepted the suggested 12 hours humanitarian truce. (Said so on an affiliated channel. can't find source for that)

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