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[Descan]

If it helps, the US hasn't stood for Freedom or Liberty for a loooong time. Possibly around the time Hitler shot himself, and you could even argue that was a fluke and that they'd stopped the whole "Liberty and Freedom" thing a century or two back from that.

Hell, aside from the Civil War and WW2 (WW1 doesn't count, because it was... a weird war, for all involved. A modern war fought with pre-modern thinking for pre-modern causes.) and certain actions like ending Jim Crow (To be clear, I'm talking about federal level, so the fact that it was American states that caused Jim Crow laws is irrelevant), most American actions have not been about Freedom or Liberty, and more in line with American and certain American allies interests.

[GavJ]

Your exceptions aren't even exceptions.

Lincoln was repeatedly very explicit about the Civil war being about the inability to tolerate secession, not about slavery. It was a war to protect federal authority and the union, not rights and freedoms.

WWII we hid in the corner and saved our own skins until forced to by direct invasion. Nothing to do with rights and freedoms.

Jim crow, okay maybe.



But still, the issue at hand isn't full scale war mobilization by Western powers no matter what. It's U.N. unilateral involvement if anything, and more likely sanctions and such. That sort of thing actually DOES happen for ideological reasons sometimes. And may happen sometime in the not so distant future.

[Duuvian]

You're basically describing Fatah before Israel screwed them over. Fatah made a serious effort to negotiate with Israel...

Seeing how Fatah managed to get itself shot out of gaza, i'd say israel didn't have any reason to simply give them free reign to fuck another region. not to mention that little annoying thing called Fatah official charter where they call to destroy israel which they refused to remove.

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/israeli-financial-measures-against-the-palestinian-authority

 IMPLICATIONS

The 2012-2013 episode highlighted the tensions involved in Israel's policy of using financial sanctions against the PA, as well as the reason for their usually limited duration. In September 2012, prior to the Palestinian statehood bid at the UN, Israel actually transferred customs revenues in advance so the PA could better deal with a wave of popular protests against its economic policies. That cash infusion, along with other Israeli economic assistance, allowed the PA to placate its public and avert a more serious political challenge. The subsequent withholding of transfers two months later was therefore met with alarm by Israeli security officials, who privately counseled the government to reverse the decision.

Similar fears are in evidence today, as Israel's threat to match unilateral PA diplomatic moves with unilateral economic measures could lead to volatility in the Palestinian territories. The Palestinians' dependence on financial and economic links with Israel is overwhelming, as is Israel's interest in maintaining the PA's viability. In recent days, some wealthy Arab states pledged additional assistance to fill the Palestinian funding gap, but numerous past pledges of this sort have rarely materialized at the scale and pace promised.

From: https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08TELAVIV2447_a.html

Spoiler: From 2008 (click to show/hide)

2.(C) While the GOI believes that maintaining the shekel as the currency of the Palestinian Territories is in Israel,s interests, it treats decisions regarding the amount of shekels in circulation in Gaza as a security matter. Requests by Palestinian banks to transfer shekels into Gaza are ultimately approved, partially approved, or denied by the National Security Council (NSC), an organ of the Israeli security establishment, not by the Bank of Israel (BOI). As part of their overall embargo plan against Gaza, Israeli officials have confirmed to econoffs on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge (see reftel &D8). The PA's request to set an NIS 100 million floor on monthly transfers to Gaza is being looked at, but no action will be taken until after January 2009, when the Palestinians' political situation becomes more clear. Complicating the Gaza issue, and Palestinian banking as a whole, is Bank Hapoalim,s recent decision to terminate its correspondent banking relationship with the Palestinian banking sector (see reftel &C8). Hapoalim remains determined to stand by its objective to sever ties on November 30, though observers have their doubts that Hapoalim will follow through on the initiative (septel).

4.(S) The PA contends that Hamas, ability to pay its workers, salaries each month combined with the inability of the PA to do so causes further deterioration in support for PA/Fatah relative to Hamas (reftel &I8). The GOI, on the other hand, believes that many of the estimated 77,000 wage earners on the PA's payroll may actually be Hamas members or affiliates. Israeli security analysts argue that a considerable portion of the civil service salaries that the PA attempts to pay each month to its Gazan employees actually find their way to Hamas or Hamas supporters (see reftel "D"). They have therefore determined that full coverage of the payroll is contrary to Israel,s security interests, even if Hamas gains some political advantage from being able to pay its salaries in full. Whether money finds its way into the territory by means of the PA payroll or the Hamas payroll, says the GOI, Hamas experiences a net increase in its funding. Israeli analysis suggests that it is best to deny the terrorist regime a larger pool of funds in Gaza, no matter the origin, preferring to minimize Hamas, ability to purchase weapons or equipment for use against Israeli civilians. Thus, they reject the PA,s argument that denying banks the liquidity to pay PA salaries in full bolsters the Hamas regime (see reftel &I8).

5.(S) Furthermore, GOI officials, while often praising the credentials of PA technocrats, doubt the effectiveness and authority of the Palestinian Monetary Authority (PMA) to regulate and police Palestinian, and especially Gazan banks. This double standard in the treatment of Gaza and the West Bank by the GOI is yet another example of how Gaza is becoming increasingly isolated from the West Bank, despite the best efforts of the PA/Fatah to maintain unity. These issues come to the fore at the end of every month when the PA tries to make payment to its &employees8 in Gaza.

[burningpet]

Huh. So what you're saying is that local/internal propaganda is blaming racism instead of israeli action for geopolitical issues? Man, I know that line. "They hate us because of our freedom," indeed. Good ol' mushroom treatment, generally.

Seriously though, does Israel really have no one in the general area they haven't screwed over so hard that said party wouldn't be willing to work as an intermediary of some sort? Not a one? Intermediary doesn't even have to really like Israel -- being willing to shoot Israelis that cross the border to screw with Palestinian land would be as much of a plus as being able to keep Hamas and company from doing the reverse.

Care to point out another reason for the independence war, the sixth day war and yom kipur war and most other incidents and conflicts between and after (barring operation Kadesh, where israel was the aggressor 'cause of european pressure)?

Why, when ISIS slaughter thousands iraqis because they are not Sunnis it is because ISIS are evil that hate everything that is not their extremely brutal and limited religion, while hamas and other forces attack Israel, its because israel are pissing them off, despite those organizations having official stances on their charters saying israel should be demolished because it's jewish?

How convenient of you to neglect to mention the fact it was the palestines terrorists (Admitted by Az Adin El Qasam) rioters that shot live fire first.

So I do what little I can and try to share the information I come across on twitter and in the news and hope to change people's minds, and maybe if enough people care pressure can be applied to make things better but lets be honest, probably not. :/

Sharing completely out of context second hand sources of second hand twitter accounts, sharing of disinformation and sharing of fabrications might change people's minds, but it will not help the palestinian people get their political and economical freedom. but, you have already established that's not your agenda.

    Yesterday, on the [Jerusalem] light rail,
    A soldier takes a seat next to me....

So, the soldier didn't join in on the hate speech. good.
So, there was a hate speech by religious nutcases, the soldier who kept quiet because he probably realized there wouldn't be a real conversation here and a man actively defending palestines right to live.

Now, lets see what would have happened when a palestine dared express such views, as the man who posted that on facebook had:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvZyYxAB4jk

Yeah, i am joining the people asking. HOW THE FUCK YOU ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING ABOUT THIS?!

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=799761006732988
This is the result of the "Protests", that Az adin El qasam officially said he was behind.

Gee, i wonder, would there have been better results if that had happened in the US? Canada? France? England? Spain? The Netherlands?

[Duuvian]

Would you like to comment on my unbiased post with it's non-opinion links?

[LordSlowpoke]

still waiting on these lots of dirt vOv

[burningpet]

Would you like to comment on my unbiased post with it's non-opinion links?

What does it actually say? that israel mostly use economic means to discourage terrorism? it is said, right there at your source that israel withhold payments as response for either terror attacks, or ties with a terror organizations, or, rarely, as a response for offensive political actions against israel.

This article also mention the funds the PA doesn't pay israel ever since the second intifada but is required to, with israel continuing to provide the services that cost me, the israeli tax payer, tons of tons of monies.

Anyway, i still maintain that the meat of this opinion article that with better economy the palestines will be more peaceful is completely wrong because evidently, they started their biggest offensive, the intifada 2, during their best economic year to date.

The wikilinks provide for a pretty coherent explanation. Israel don't want to indirectly pay hamas salaries. as it should and is required by international law.

[Duuvian]

Would you like to comment on my unbiased post with it's non-opinion links?

What does it actually say? that israel mostly use economic means to discourage terrorism? it is said, right there at your source that israel withhold payments as response for either terror attacks, or ties with a terror organizations, or, rarely, as a response for offensive political actions against israel.

This article also mention the funds the PA doesn't pay israel ever since the second intifada but is required to, with israel continuing to provide the services that cost me, the israeli tax payer, tons of tons of monies.

Anyway, i still maintain that the meat of this opinion article that with better economy the palestines will be more peaceful is completely wrong because evidently, they started their biggest offensive, the intifada 2, during their best economic year to day.

The wikilinks provide for a pretty coherent explanation. Israel don't want to indirectly pay hamas salaries. as it should and is required by international law.

I was responding to what I quoted in the post I made before the one that was quoted. In that context, it was meant to show that organizations that convey an image that was "friendly to Israel but doing credible research on the Middle East in a realistic and balanced way" don't share your opinion that Fatah 'fucked the region.'

The wikileak link was one I found by following a link within a link in one of GlyphGryph's posts and I linked it primarily to show that even should someone hold the opinion that Fatah fucked the region they should consider that it was not alone in doing so.

Anyway, i still maintain that the meat of this opinion article that with better economy the palestines will be more peaceful is completely wrong because evidently, they started their biggest offensive, the intifada 2, during their best economic year to date.

I won't argue this because both sides blame each other for starting the second intifada, and to be honest during my reading of the wikipedia pages I see examples of poor decisions on both sides.

If you would like my own opinion, I would say that I agree with you that the international community should take a a greater role in de-militarizing Hamas. I think that it would be useful to have a binding but unbiased world organization that can dictate terms solely related to human rights to world governments while it's resolutions can't be vetoed by any one nation. I would suggest this only because it may take outside action due to the current political environment on both sides in this matter to try to end this extended hostility that both sides acknowledge benefit few. One of those terms should be the resumption of the elections suspended by Hamas in Gaza. Another should be that the blockade should be lifted incrementally but quickly as reasonable disarmament terms are fulfilled.

I'll leave the quandary of how an area that is to be kept 'just before economic collapse' is to pay it's debts for other posters to argue with you.

[burningpet]

I was responding to what I quoted in that post. In that context, it was meant to show that organizations that convey an image that was "friendly to Israel but doing credible research on the Middle East in a realistic and balanced way" don't share your opinion that Fatah 'fucked the region.'

But that source doesn't deal with Fatah charter nor with Fatah ability to get themselves shot out of gaza. my argument was that simply giving Fatah free reign would lead to the same result as happened in gaza, mainly, Fatah overthrown by Hamas.

I'll leave the quandary of how an area that is to be kept 'just before economic collapse' is to pay it's debts for other posters to argue with you.

Except another explanation to this would be that israel keep sending funds to hamas as to not totally collapse the economics of gaza, despite those funds mostly going to funding offensive actions against israel.

[martinuzz]

If you would like my own opinion, I would say that I agree with you that the international community should take a a greater role in de-militarizing Hamas. I think that it would be useful to have a binding but unbiased world organization that can dictate terms solely related to human rights to world governments while it's resolutions can't be vetoed by any one nation. I would suggest this only because it may take outside action due to the current political environment on both sides in this matter to try to end this extended hostility that both sides acknowledge benefit few. One of those terms should be the resumption of the elections suspended by Hamas in Gaza. Another should be that the blockade should be lifted incrementally but quickly as reasonable disarmament terms are fulfilled.

I'll leave the quandary of how an area that is to be kept 'just before economic collapse' is to pay it's debts for other posters to argue with you.

“Modern industrial civilisation has developed within a certain system of convenient myths. The driving force of modern industrial civilisation has been individual material gain, which is accepted as legitimate, even praiseworthy, on the grounds that private vices yield public benefits in the classic formulation.

Now, it's long been understood very well that a society that is based on this principle will destroy itself in time. It can only persist with whatever suffering and injustice it entails as long as it's possible to pretend that the destructive forces that humans create are limited: that the World is an infinite resource, and that the World is an infinite garbage-can. At this stage of History, either one of two things is possible: either the general population will take control of its own destiny and will concern itself with community-interests, guided by values of solidarity and sympathy and concern for others; or, alternatively, there will be no destiny for anyone to control.

As long as some specialised class is in a position of authority, it is going to set policy in the special interests that it serves. But the conditions of survival, let alone justice, require rational social planning in the interests of the community as a whole and, by now, that means the Global Community. The question is whether privileged élites should dominate mass-communication, and should use this power as they tell us they must, namely, to impose necessary illusions, manipulate and deceive the stupid majority, and remove them from the public arena. The question, in brief, is whether Democracy and Freedom are values to be preserved or threats to be avoided. In this possibly-terminal phase of human existence, Democracy and Freedom are more than values to be treasured, they may well be essential to survival.”
  ― Noam Chomsky

[Duuvian]

If you would like my own opinion, I would say that I agree with you that the international community should take a a greater role in de-militarizing Hamas. I think that it would be useful to have a binding but unbiased world organization that can dictate terms solely related to human rights to world governments while it's resolutions can't be vetoed by any one nation. I would suggest this only because it may take outside action due to the current political environment on both sides in this matter to try to end this extended hostility that both sides acknowledge benefit few. One of those terms should be the resumption of the elections suspended by Hamas in Gaza. Another should be that the blockade should be lifted incrementally but quickly as reasonable disarmament terms are fulfilled.

I'll leave the quandary of how an area that is to be kept 'just before economic collapse' is to pay it's debts for other posters to argue with you.

“Modern industrial civilisation has developed within a certain system of convenient myths. The driving force of modern industrial civilisation has been individual material gain, which is accepted as legitimate, even praiseworthy, on the grounds that private vices yield public benefits in the classic formulation.

Now, it's long been understood very well that a society that is based on this principle will destroy itself in time. It can only persist with whatever suffering and injustice it entails as long as it's possible to pretend that the destructive forces that humans create are limited: that the World is an infinite resource, and that the World is an infinite garbage-can. At this stage of History, either one of two things is possible: either the general population will take control of its own destiny and will concern itself with community-interests, guided by values of solidarity and sympathy and concern for others; or, alternatively, there will be no destiny for anyone to control.

As long as some specialised class is in a position of authority, it is going to set policy in the special interests that it serves. But the conditions of survival, let alone justice, require rational social planning in the interests of the community as a whole and, by now, that means the Global Community. The question is whether privileged élites should dominate mass-communication, and should use this power as they tell us they must, namely, to impose necessary illusions, manipulate and deceive the stupid majority, and remove them from the public arena. The question, in brief, is whether Democracy and Freedom are values to be preserved or threats to be avoided. In this possibly-terminal phase of human existence, Democracy and Freedom are more than values to be treasured, they may well be essential to survival.”
  ― Noam Chomsky

Yeah, I can't argue with that. My opinion as quoted was wrong. I will leave it upon the internet in shame.

Thanks martinuzz.

I was responding to what I quoted in that post. In that context, it was meant to show that organizations that convey an image that was "friendly to Israel but doing credible research on the Middle East in a realistic and balanced way" don't share your opinion that Fatah 'fucked the region.'

But that source doesn't deal with Fatah charter nor with Fatah ability to get themselves shot out of gaza. my argument was that simply giving Fatah free reign would lead to the same result as happened in gaza, mainly, Fatah overthrown by Hamas.

I'll leave the quandary of how an area that is to be kept 'just before economic collapse' is to pay it's debts for other posters to argue with you.

Except another explanation to this would be that israel keep sending funds to hamas as to not totally collapse the economics of gaza, despite those funds mostly going to funding offensive actions against israel.

Yeah, that's a good point. I just read up on the Fatah charter; it appears it was almost changed in the 90's. It's too bad that it wasn't.

As for the second, I will try to look at it that way in the future. It is hard sometimes when people are dieing not to look at one's fellow humanity in a worse light in even distantly related things because of it, and I fear perhaps I fell victim to that and I apologize if in the process of my argument if I argued as the devil's advocate and not even intentionally where it may sometimes be beneficial as a constructive tool.

With that, I think I too am going to bail out of this thread for now. Thanks for argueing with me burningpet, and doing it well, but this topic apparently brings out some of the worst in me. I should have known better as soon as I used the word 'dictate' and not in the writer's sense.

[burningpet]

http://actualite-israel.com/les-menaces-du-hamas-sur-un-journaliste-tu-dois-quitter-gaza-au-p-410595/

English translation:
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.il/2014/07/hamas-al-qassam-offices-are-next-to.html#.U9JLvPmSy2X

http://www.liberation.fr/monde/2014/07/24/tu-dois-quitter-gaza-au-plus-vite-et-arreter-de-travailler_1069701
The original article was Unpublished at "his request" - free translation, its fricking dangerous to publish the truth when you got hamas terrorists next to you.

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Gaza-reporters-tweets-Hamas-using-human-shields-368689

[Leafsnail]

English translation:
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.il/2014/07/hamas-al-qassam-offices-are-next-to.html#.U9JLvPmSy2X

There are many journalists that have been hanging around Al Shifa hospital. Very few have mentioned that the terrorist wing of Hamas is even present, let alone set up next to the emergency room.

Is it because they are pro-Hamas? Is it Stockholm syndrome? Or is their hate of Israel so deep that anything that supports the IDF's assertions of Hamas war crimes is considered off limits?

Or, rather than those incredibly implausible explanations, perhaps this article was total bollocks and was taken down for that reason

[burningpet]

English translation:
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.il/2014/07/hamas-al-qassam-offices-are-next-to.html#.U9JLvPmSy2X

There are many journalists that have been hanging around Al Shifa hospital. Very few have mentioned that the terrorist wing of Hamas is even present, let alone set up next to the emergency room.

Is it because they are pro-Hamas? Is it Stockholm syndrome? Or is their hate of Israel so deep that anything that supports the IDF's assertions of Hamas war crimes is considered off limits?

Or, rather than those incredibly implausible explanations, perhaps this article was total bollocks and was taken down for that reason

How about no, scott?


http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=6098
This, this is fatah.

Three, non israeli experts talk about this situation in a larger context. sorry, its in hebrew.
http://www.calcalist.co.il/local/articles/0,7340,L-3636739,00.html

[Leafsnail]

UN school-turned-shelter is bombed, killing 15, mostly women and children in yet another tragic accident
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/israeli-strike-un-school-gaza-kills-women-children
They were warned, but were not given a chance to evacuate so that's rather irrelevant.  There's currently no evidence that the shelter had any kind of military value.

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=6098
This, this is fatah.

This is over two years old and this guy was arrested a while ago, I'm not sure what the relevance to the current conflict is?