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Author Topic: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!  (Read 372588 times)

XXSockXX

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5985 on: July 24, 2014, 11:27:35 am »

If you withdraw your settlement and don't involve yourself with governing, instead just doing humanitarian efforts and providing your own security, that's hardly "occupation, to a greater extent than we have in the West Bank now". Do you think the Palestinians would decline an offer to withdraw settlements and replace them with hospitals, schools, nursing homes, food banks, and shelters, even if they had Israel security on premises?

I'm not saying this sort of thing would be guaranteed to work. I'm saying it's worth making the effort and trying. Because what they are doing now is definitely not achieving the goal they claim to want.
Well, I think such a thing would require a big military presence, for practical reasons, and the Palestinians wouldn't accept that (they wouldn't perceive it as a big change, even without settlements). If you think it through, securing individual buildings in potentially hostile territory is even harder than blockading a city, especially if you don't control the territory overall. Not only would they be perceived as occupiers instead of security guards, they would have a hard time defending themselves if you just station a dozen soldiers at isolated buildings over a big territory. I don't think that is a very realistic idea.
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burningpet

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5986 on: July 24, 2014, 11:33:16 am »

Maybe not, but burningpet will present the UNRWA as basically a Hamas front.

I am pretty sure the evidence is pretty clear about this. this is not my "presentation". its the reality.

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Palsch, assinging blame for the escalation is of course hard, especially since low-level violence between Hamas and the IDF happens all the time, but at the very least Israel didn't try to prevent it. Hell, we had burningpet telling us that they escalated things on purpose to get an excuse to attack the tunnels.

No, i didn't say that, i said that hamas escalated by shooting barages of rockets at civilian population because israel tried to prevent from hamas from committing a serious imminent offensive through the tunnels, who act as an offensive act of war in themselves, 

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Regarding the way an occupation would weaken or reinforce Hamas, I guess only time will tell. I think however that short of passing every fighting-age male Gazan by the sword, the best Israel can hope for is for a lull in the rockets shooting during the occupation (why bother with rockets when you can kill Israeli soldiers at home?) and for a few month afterward while Hamas retool from fighting an occupation to rockets. It's basically what we had in 2008 and 2012.

I think I'm with GlyphGryph here. The only long-term way to bring peace (and to prevent their citizens from dying) is for the Israeli government to show that there is a non-violent way toward peace. Stop blocking internal recognition of Palestine and recognize it as a state. Pull back the settlements, start withdrawing from the West Bank under some conditions (Like a Palestinian government strong enough to keep its terrorist in check). The real choice is not whether or not to bomb Gaza in response to Hamas, but whether or not to make peace with the Palestinian. And Israel chose not to.

Except we did it in gaza and got a hamas fortress that use children and women as meat shields. we got a terror organization that cynically use mosques, schools, ambulances and hospitals as its bases of operation. we got a terror organization that dig offensive tunnels onto israeli territory. we got a terror organization that is stealing the aid of its own people to fund itself war machines and luxury houses, both in the strip and abroad.

Israel chose peace. palestines chose not to oppose when hamas took them by force. there is no mistake with that if you look at the historic timelines.

If you withdraw your settlement and don't involve yourself with governing, instead just doing humanitarian efforts and providing your own security, that's hardly "occupation, to a greater extent than we have in the West Bank now". Do you think the Palestinians would decline an offer to withdraw settlements and replace them with hospitals, schools, nursing homes, food banks, and shelters, even if they had Israel security on premises?

Sorry, i am bit confused here. are you suggesting we subject all palestines to a military rule for israeli and palestine mutual protection?
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Darvi

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5987 on: July 24, 2014, 11:54:48 am »

Maybe not, but burningpet will present the UNRWA as basically a Hamas front.

I am pretty sure the evidence is pretty clear about this. this is not my "presentation". its the reality.
What evidence?
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XXSockXX

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5988 on: July 24, 2014, 12:06:16 pm »

The FGM story may be a hoax.
Luckily it really appears to be a hoax. According to this, the arabic document shared on twitter dates from last year and appears manipulated, it has gaps and erratic spelling.
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burningpet

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5989 on: July 24, 2014, 12:21:55 pm »

Maybe not, but burningpet will present the UNRWA as basically a Hamas front.

I am pretty sure the evidence is pretty clear about this. this is not my "presentation". its the reality.
What evidence?

Ex-President admitting UNRWA has officialy listed hamas terrorists on their pay-roll.

The two videos i have shown of UNRWA ambulances serving as APC for terrorists. those are but a small example that indicate at the larger problem.

Evidence of schools and hospitals housing rockets and rocket launchers. when rockets are found, UNRWA returned them to the "Palestinians authorities (while refusing to document the evidence), which, in free translation, means, yeah you guessed right, Hamas.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5990 on: July 24, 2014, 12:33:45 pm »

Well, I think such a thing would require a big military presence, for practical reasons, and the Palestinians wouldn't accept that (they wouldn't perceive it as a big change, even without settlements). If you think it through, securing individual buildings in potentially hostile territory is even harder than blockading a city, especially if you don't control the territory overall. Not only would they be perceived as occupiers instead of security guards, they would have a hard time defending themselves if you just station a dozen soldiers at isolated buildings over a big territory. I don't think that is a very realistic idea.

Why would it require a big military presence? Because Israeli's wouldn't be willing to do it without one? How would they be perceived as occupiers if they didn't... occupy anything? Are the UNRWA schools and their security staff seen as "occupiers"? The locals certainly don't seem to see it like that, and while there will certainly be some hostility and suspicion with Israel doing the same at first, if they can avoid committing any atrocities while working basic security those opinions are unlikely to last long in the face of honest attempts to improve their lives, at least not badly enough to provoke violence.

And yes, they'd probably have a hard time defending themselves against an intentional and coordinated attack. That's what I meant by "Israel will have to take some risks if it wants peace". They serve as a disincentive, though. How long will Hamas's popularity last if they start firefights in hospitals and assault schools? If the casualties are actually their fault in real terms, rather than just in Israeli propaganda?

And if their are Israeli security teams there and the buildings are built with Israeli money, there will be a lot more incentive to find other solutions than "bomb them and kill everyone inside" whenever an issue comes up. If they are actually achieving notable improvements in the locals quality of life, they even get actual diplomatic pull in getting the Palestinian government to pursue anyone using the structures for that purpose as criminals lest the aid be pulled out.

It doesn't even have to be anything like that, the point of what I'm trying to say is that Israel isn't going to be able to negotiate peace if it's only tools are "stick" and "less stick", which is where it is right now. It needs to be able to work with "carrot" and "less carrot" as well.

Have they ever proposed as a term of a peace agreement a carrot of some sort? Actually giving something to the Palestinians rather than just stopping some bad thing they were doing?

If you want a stable and allied local government, you need to give them something that can be spun as a straight positive to the people. "Removing Settlers" is certainly a good thing, but it's tied up in the fact that you were adding settlers! It's a neutral position! "Removing the blockades", "releasing prisoners" are both the exact same thing, they just are just a cessation of (often indiscriminate and collective) punishment. They can't be spun as a positive. They might serve as an introductory step, as a sign of trust and a willingness to stop making things worse, but what have they actually offered to make things better, to get people to say "To be honest, I am glad Israel is here, because without them I would have/be able to do (x)"?

If the really want the Palestinians to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, as a primary goal, at some point they are probably going to have to do something to convince them they would be better off than if Israel did not exist, and right now that's a difficult claim to make.


And now, pictures!
Israel released some images justifying why they bombed Al-Wafa Hospital and the right-to-life center.

The argument basically being that a rocket was fired from the lot across the street.

The Right to Life center is a facility dedicated to caring for those born with Down's Syndrome
and the area in the top right there with the verenda is was a feather in the cap for the Playgrounds For Palestine society.


« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 12:58:24 pm by GlyphGryph »
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10ebbor10

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5991 on: July 24, 2014, 12:47:16 pm »

On a side note, Hamas is shot a few more missiles at Dimona a few days ago. If they'll continue that, they're going to hit it one of these days.

Edit: Speaking of which, Burningpet, was is your opinion about Dimona and the Israelian Nuclear program, including the Samson opinion. Fake, or true? Justified or an act of destabilizing an already volatile region?
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burningpet

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5992 on: July 24, 2014, 12:55:11 pm »

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4543634,00.html
(In english)

An interesting article about hamas top leaders wealth. it fails to mention the same corruption in Fatah and it fails to mention several other hamas top leaders.

In a safe estimation, hamas, through its leaders, has more than 10BN$ whether in personal investments, liquid assets and real estates that do not benefit the population in gaza. this amount does not take into consideration the vast amount of money spent on weapons, tunnels, rockets and explosives.

On a side note, Hamas is shot a few more missiles at Dimona a few days ago. If they'll continue that, they're going to hit it one of these days.

Edit: Speaking of which, Burningpet, was is your opinion about Dimona and the Israelian Nuclear program, including the Samson opinion. Fake, or true? Justified or an act of destabilizing an already volatile region?

How does it destabilize the region?
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Owlbread

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5993 on: July 24, 2014, 01:00:33 pm »

How does it destabilize the region?

Before we discuss that, do you think it is justified?
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5994 on: July 24, 2014, 01:00:49 pm »

HAs there been any evidence at all of Hamas storing rockets/munitions in actively used schools and hospitals?

An interesting article about the Israeli's who refuse the call to serve in the current conflict, for a variety of moral reasons
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 01:02:36 pm by GlyphGryph »
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burningpet

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5995 on: July 24, 2014, 01:02:59 pm »

If the casualties are actually their fault in real terms, rather than just in Israeli propaganda?

Hmm, i am pretty sure those videos were not edited, and that the rockets UNRWA had found weren't placed there by israel :o

Quote
And if their are Israeli security teams there and the buildings are built with Israeli money, there will be a lot more incentive to find other solutions than "bomb them and kill everyone inside" whenever an issue comes up. If they are actually achieving notable improvements in the locals quality of life, they even get actual diplomatic pull in getting the Palestinian government to pursue anyone using the structures for that purpose as criminals lest the aid be pulled out.

It doesn't even have to be anything like that, the point of what I'm trying to say is that Israel isn't going to be able to negotiate peace if it's only tools are "stick" and "less stick", which is where it is right now. It needs to be able to work with "carrot" and "less carrot" as well.

Have they ever proposed as a term of a peace agreement a carrot of some sort? Actually giving something to the Palestinians rather than just stopping some bad thing they were doing?

Hey "genius", who built Shifa hospital? who gave them a 200M a year business? who provide them with free water, telecommunications and electricity?
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burningpet

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5996 on: July 24, 2014, 01:07:19 pm »

How does it destabilize the region?

Before we discuss that, do you think it is justified?

Its justification is closely knitted with its ability to destabilize or stabilize the region.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5997 on: July 24, 2014, 01:09:15 pm »

Jsut a reminder, you're still on the ignore list. But let's see if I can counter your post without even knowing what it says!

a) No, just because Hamas does something bad doesn't mean it's okay for Israel to do something bad.
b) Hamas does not "force" Israel to kill civilians, Israel has a choice and is still the one to kill civilians.
c) Yes, we all know Hamas is bloody terrible, and Palestine would be better off without them, but by your own logic Israel is "forcing" them to launch rockets, and we don't exactly have any influence over Hamas anyway.
d) And, if you're directly addressing my post, active is a keyword, finding stuff hidden in other unused buildings doesn't justify Israel bombing occupied ones because "their might be stuff their too".

I'm assuming at least one of those will adequately cover any response you made. Have a nice day. :)

Moving on, I am having difficulty telling the difference between some articles about reality and onion articles lately...
Israeli Professor: Rape Hamas Militants' Mothers and Sisters to Deter Terrorist Attacks
Israeli women do Gaza Strip for IDF - Facebook campaign calls on individuals to shed their clothes in order to boost soldiers’ morale
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 01:12:36 pm by GlyphGryph »
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10ebbor10

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5998 on: July 24, 2014, 01:12:31 pm »

How does it destabilize the region?
Israel has nukes -> Iran gets nukes -> Saudi Arabia gets nukes -> Somebody is stupid enough to use them.

It's historically seen that it's unlikely for a power to maintain a nuclear hegemony.

On the other hand MAD is in effect, but it's only a matter of time before an unstable regime manages to lose one of their nukes to terrorists.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 01:17:26 pm by 10ebbor10 »
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SharpKris

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #5999 on: July 24, 2014, 01:23:10 pm »

How does it destabilize the region?
Israel has nukes -> Iran gets nukes -> Saudi Arabia gets nukes -> Somebody is stupid enough to use them.

It's historically seen that it's unlikely for a power to maintain a nuclear hegemony.

On the other hand MAD is in effect, but it's only a matter of time before an unstable regime manages to lose one of their nukes to terrorists.

honestly we're just waiting on the US or Russia to decide who owns Israel, at that point i wouldn't mind either of them and the dick waving contest would finally come to an end
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