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[burningpet]

Or that the pilots saw the civilians couldn't evacuate on time, as the pilots themselves says so.

[GavJ]

they are evidently skewed by seeing the percentage of female casualties

This issue is not convincing to me. There are a ton of reasons why gender inequalities could exist merely by chance. Namely, palestinian women are less likely to be roaming around on the streets as israeli women, due to religious/cultural differences. So you would statistically expect a lower percentage of dead palestinian women simply due to them being on average indoors and protected by walls from shrapnel, etc. to a greater degree than israeli women.

you don't give or take percentages from the numbers in the israeli side, you reduce the numbers in the palestine side because not only they were proven skewed

Can you please explain this in greater detail? I'm not following you based on what I've heard about the numbers. I.e. the rules being applied differently for the two different groups in a way that would explain what you're suggesting.

[smjjames]

Wouldn't Christianity also call itself a religion of peace? It's (mostly) gotten itself past the phase that Islam seems stuck in though.

[Sergarr]

Wouldn't Christianity also call itself a religion of peace? It's (mostly) gotten itself past the phase that Islam seems stuck in though.

Islam is stuck in that phase because Middle East after the Mongols came through it burning everything is a very shitty place to live.

[LordSlowpoke]

it was surprisingly religion of peace-ish before that though

i guess it proves the old saying that poverty makes radical

[Darvi]

you don't need a source, you just need common sense.

That hurt my brain.

I know, requiring common sense sometimes does that to people

It's my inner sceptic trying to call bull on that while I try my best to resist those urges. What you said literally meant that you don't need to give sources because all of your arguments can be backed by "common sense". Never mind that common sense is completely subjective and actually pretty rare since everybody disagrees on something.

Discussions are like rivers and lakes, without sources, they dry up and cause the surrounding vegetation to die of dehydration.

Wait what.

[Angle]

And then you get flame wars.

[GlyphGryph]

Gideon Levy is one of the few supporters of peace left in Israeli media
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/twilight-zone/.premium-1.605746

    The man came right up close to me, to the point where I could smell his fetid breath. He took a wad of bills out of his pocket and peeled off a few green 20-shekel (almost $6) notes. I should use them to buy myself an apartment in the Gaza Strip, he told me. “Go to Gaza,” the man said, seething with anger and barely suppressed violence.

    A visitor here [to Ashkelon] is struck immediately by two major differences between Operation Protective Edge and its two reprisal predecessors, Cast Lead and Pillar of Defense. The atmosphere in the streets and in people’s homes is a little more secure and less panicky – thanks to the Iron Dome system – but at the same time it is far more violent, nationalistic, religious, militaristic and, above all, aggressive and intolerant.

    During Operation Cast Lead, at the end of December 2008, I published an article very similar to the one I published this week on the op-ed page, about the air force pilots who are bombing Gaza. The earlier article was received with relative quiet, but this week the gates of hell opened up: I was subjected to a volley of vilification and attacks, of threats and verbal abuse that went beyond anything in my experience. My intention was to express my opinion and provoke a discussion about the pilots’ role and their responsibility for what they are wreaking in Gaza now. Maybe I succeeded to some extent, but the discourse turned vicious and verbally violent to the extreme.

    All the seeds of the incitement of the past few years, all the nationalistic, racist legislation and the incendiary propaganda, the scare campaigns and the subversion of democracy by the right-wing camp – all these have borne fruit, and that fruit is rank and rotten. The nationalist right has now sunk to a new level, with almost the whole country following in its wake. The word “fascism,” which I try to use as little as possible, finally has its deserved place in the Israeli political discourse. My closest friends urged me to get out of here until things calm down, to be careful, to take care, or at least stay home.

    In no time at all, a crowd gathered, radiating waves of loathing and suppressed violence that seemed as if they would erupt at any moment. The comments were vulgar, crude, unfit to be printed. “You faggot, you ass-f-----” was the gentlest and most tender epithet I heard.

    The only thing that stood between me and a lynching this week was a Channel 2 News camera. I was supposed to be interviewed, but that idea died a quick death. It was aborted when a beefy guy in a sporty T-shirt planted himself opposite me and didn’t let me reply to the questions from the interviewer. A very concrete demonstration of the broad, open boundaries of freedom of expression in Israel in 2014.

    “You’re a good-for-nothing traitor,” he spat into the camera, using his 15 seconds of live-broadcast fame, sweating and virtually foaming at the mouth. “You have no business talking. You say our pilots are murderers. You have no business talking at all, when our soldiers are lying in wait. Our pilots are the most moral of anyone! Shame on you.” The crowd around him kept growing and getting more agitated.

    “Maybe we’ll try again?” the interviewer, Aharon Barnea, suggested. But in vain.

    “Democracy, but not against the State of Israel,” the local democrat shouted.

    “Okay, I can see it’s going to be too hard to do this. The temperature of blood in people’s veins is way too high these days,” the interviewer observed, giving up. I got out of there.

    “Tell it not in Gath, publish it not in the streets of Ashkelon; lest the daughters of the Philistines rejoice, lest the daughters of the uncircumcised triumph” (2 Samuel 1:20). Fare thee well, Ashkelon. Won’t be seeing you again soon.

[burningpet]

94/6 does not explain it by gender inequalities or chance. the difference is simply too big.

Betzelem can't actually tell who was a combatant in the palestine side, so it must assume "roles" based on the nature of his departure or his age. in other words, it guesses who was a civilian and who was an operative.

i'll give you another example, there is an issue with teen "spies" that repeatedly try to sneak past the gazan border to identify weak spots for the hamas operatives and then come back, IDF usually don't shoot them, but sometimes when they try to go through the fence at night, the soldiers can't identify if its a combatant or a teen working for combatants and are forced to shoot him down. betzelem automatically assumes them civilians because they are not officially listed in any of the organizations list, but their nature of departure was because they performed a military action (gathering intelligence for a future offensive) and are being paid for doing so meaning they should be regarded as operatives.

But contrary to the palestine side, betzelem can tell precisely what goes on in the israeli side because every israeli has an I.D number and the state knows if he is in the military (or other security forces. betzelem sees israeli police as combative) or a civilian and this data is freely given to anyone who asks for it. the social security benefits to civilian casualties families and military casualties families are different so the social security lists serve as another source of information to compare against.

In essence and simplicity, there is no problem obtaining the data who is a soldier and who is a civilian in israel so there is no reason to "normalize" the numbers against the palestines.

And well, if we do demand sources, then this is but one that deals with some of the "civilians".
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=493&x_context=2

and Haaretz article about betzelem abuse of data:
http://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/1.1356183

It's my inner sceptic trying to call bull on that while I try my best to resist those urges. What you said literally meant that you don't need to give sources because all of your arguments can be backed by "common sense". Never mind that common sense is completely subjective and actually pretty rare since everybody disagrees on something.

Discussions are like rivers and lakes, without sources, they dry up and cause the surrounding vegetation to die of dehydration.

Wait what.

But there was the source he provided. i simply said he didn't need a source to see the problems in the data within his source, since they are extremely apparent.

it was surprisingly religion of peace-ish before that though

i guess it proves the old saying that poverty makes radical

Islam was a religion of peace before!? it has been a religion of war almost since its inception.

[burningpet]

Snip

So, in essence, he got yelled at?
how is that different to the anti-semitic protests all throughout the world that call to kill jewish and israelis and destroy israel?

And obviously the crowds would get more agitated over the years. people are tired of having to leave their homes every two years because of hamas.

Also, i believe he will take this "angry mob" over the beheading he would have faced in gaza if he was there advocating against hamas

[GlyphGryph]

In other news, France has banned pro-Palestine demonstrations, and participating in a pro-Palestine demonstration will get you prison time (three years if you wear a mask at any time during the protest).

Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said it was needed because those protests were provoking violence from Jewish vigalantes, and the Jewish Defense League had engaged in multiple instances of vandalism and committing violence against pro-Palestine protestors and this was the only way to stop them from doing it again.

Even publishing the details of a pro-palestine march, rally, or meetup on facebook will earn you a year in prison, and a 15,000 euro fine.

Also, burningpet, I don't know if you responded to me there, but if you did I figured I should just let you know I have you on ignore, so you don't need to bother in the future.

[LordSlowpoke]

they are banning demonstrations

because they cause people (that are not demonstrators) to commit crimes

that's a hilarious application of law gg no re france you're up there with the uk on my legit liberty list

[GlyphGryph]

Admittedly, the most thorough article I've seen about it was from the Daily Mail, so expect... some inaccuracies. The fact that pro-palestinian demonstrations are banned is definitely true, but the French might justify it differently?

[burningpet]

In other news, France has banned pro-Palestine demonstrations, and participating in a pro-Palestine demonstration will get you prison time (three years if you wear a mask at any time during the protest).

Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said it was needed because those protests were provoking violence from Jewish vigalantes, and the Jewish Defense League had engaged in multiple instances of vandalism and committing violence against pro-Palestine protestors and this was the only way to stop them from doing it again.

Even publishing the details of a pro-palestine march, rally, or meetup on facebook will earn you a year in prison, and a 15,000 euro fine.

Also, burningpet, I don't know if you responded to me there, but if you did I figured I should just let you know I have you on ignore, so you don't need to bother in the future.

In essence and free translation - "lets not piss off the many muslims we have, so we should blame it on the jews "

and yet, it was the muslims that have ignored that french rule and conducted a pretty violent protest against the french police.

Greatorder:
You seem to forget the inner wars after muhamad death or the conquests of the caliphates.

also, i didn't miss that point, i just didn't accept it because its not serious. gideon levy is quite a provocator and if an angry mobs wanted to kill him without cameras, they could have easily done so.

[GavJ]

94/6 does not explain it by gender inequalities or chance. the difference is simply too big.

Where are you getting this 94% figure from? The population of women is 50-51%, not 94?

And yes, I think that their cultural differences in women being allowed to roam around in public ABSOLUTELY explains that big of a difference (between 50% born and 6% killed). Here is a pretty representative google image shot of a crowd of Palestinians:
http://azjewishpost.com/files/Palestinians.jpg

Go ahead, count up the proportion of men vs. women you see out on the streets, unprotected from flying metal. Looking at this image and pretty much every other one like it, I find a 6% death toll of women extremely believable by chance.

i'll give you another example, there is an issue with teen "spies" that repeatedly try to sneak past the gazan border to identify weak spots for the hamas operatives and then come back, IDF usually don't shoot them, but sometimes when they try to go through the fence at night, the soldiers can't identify if its a combatant or a teen working for combatants and are forced to shoot him down. betzelem automatically assumes them civilians because they are not officially listed in any of the organizations list, but their nature of departure was because they performed a military action (gathering intelligence for a future offensive) and are being paid for doing so meaning they should be regarded as operatives.

But contrary to the palestine side, betzelem can tell precisely what goes on in the israeli side because every israeli has an I.D number and the state knows if he is in the military (or other security forces. betzelem sees israeli police as combative) or a civilian and this data is freely given to anyone who asks for it. the social security benefits to civilian casualties families and military casualties families are different so the social security lists serve as another source of information to compare against.

Assuming the Israeli state has absolutely no incentive to fudge their numbers, even if they do have such data fully available *eyeroll* this still gives no indication of HOW MUCH to adjust down the palestinian numbers. By 3%? By 30%?  What? If there's no magnitude implied, then this doesn't tell us much of anything useful for drawing moral conclusions.

And well, if we do demand sources, then this is but one that deals with some of the "civilians".
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=493&x_context=2

The argument here is that people outright attacking folks shouldn't get counted as civilians. Okay, that's fair, but that's a DIFFERENT standard than "Do they have an Israeli ID number?" on the other side. Somebody attacking doesn't mean they're government-backed or a soldier, or vice versa.

You have to be consistent. If you want to count "offensively acting person" as a non-civilian, you have to do that for both sides, and both sets of numbers are going to be wrong, because I'm sure there are israelis that are not government-endorsed who commit violences, as well as government forces who weren't being offensive who got killed but were still soldiers. And you'd also not get to include hamas soldiers if they were not actively attacking when killed.

Etc. etc.  I don't know how the numbers would pan out in any of these instances absolutely, but you can't go and apply one set of definitions "ID number or not?" to one group, and a different one "attacking at the time or not?" to another group, and claim it more accurate than the earlier reported numbers.  You need one rule for both groups.