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[XXSockXX]

And some people still remember how well helping rebel fighters in Afghanistan in the 80-s turned out.

Or wonder what will happen in Afghanistan when the international troops are gone...

It's a catch-22, either we let people suffer now or we cause more suffering later.

[Owlbread]

I think arming rebels is alright if you're fully prepared for what will happen after the war. After the FSA win (there is no coming back for Assad  now, that's a given)  they will fight a gruelling war with Al-Nusra, a war we would be involved in if we intervene against Assad.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I don't know, they seem pretty integrated with al-Nusra now. They'd just set up an Islamist regime. If there's no returning pro-democracy forces we might as well let them and Assad kill each other.

[Scoops Novel]

Can you give me some of your sources? I've wanted to find out more about this.

[Owlbread]

I don't know, they seem pretty integrated with al-Nusra now. They'd just set up an Islamist regime. If there's no returning pro-democracy forces we might as well let them and Assad kill each other.

From what I've read (on stuff like wikipedia admittedly) that isn't true at all. There have been small clashes between the FSA and al-Nusra over their extreme, conservative, islamist policies in rebel controlled zones. I read a statement from an FSA commander that basically stated the FSA and al-Nusra are allies now but will be post-war enemies. The FSA is also becoming more democratic by the day as huge numbers of islamists defect to al-Nusra (over a quarter of the FSA apparently). I know there are islamists in the FSA but I trust them more than Assad or al-Nusra, regardless of lung eating.

Also - "leaving them to it" is going to cause terrible suffering on both sides. I think we just have to intervene.

[XXSockXX]

I don't know, they seem pretty integrated with al-Nusra now. They'd just set up an Islamist regime. If there's no returning pro-democracy forces we might as well let them and Assad kill each other.

I think you are oversimplifying things here, there are many factors going into this, different ethnic and religious groups with wildly varying political goals.
I wish we had a less cynical solution to this, but I find it hard to make my mind up about the right thing to do. Our politicians seem to have the same problem.

[Scoops Novel]

BBC has just been showing a damascus school, teenagers (western looking), and a journalist talking kindly to a girl who lost her home, immediately after saying we need to increase our involvement. Certainly looks like we will.

[XXSockXX]

Oh, we get lots of these reports too. Many people, journalists and others, are lobbying for at least humanitarian (as in medical) help. But any humanitarian mission would require protection and we're back to square one.

[Scoops Novel]

Oh, we get lots of these reports too. Many people, journalists and others, are lobbying for at least humanitarian (as in medical) help. But any humanitarian mission would require protection and we're back to square one.

The BBC is an "official" source, by which i mean being slightly propaganda heavy (by American standards). If they're reporting sympathetically, it's telling.

[XXSockXX]

The BBC is an "official" source, by which i mean being slightly propaganda heavy (by American standards). If they're reporting sympathetically, it's telling.

The most important german tv-news sources are as "official" as the BBC, being public service broadcasters. But if they're reporting sympathetically (and they do), it doesn't necessarily translate into political actions.
Not that german military could pull something like that off anyway. And due to general aversity against military involvment (as we previously discussed), politicians will be careful. We did not participate in the Libyan intervention and are reluctantly providing logistical assistance to the french intervention in Mali. Syria might look too dangerous.

[Leafsnail]

The BBC is an "official" source, by which i mean being slightly propaganda heavy (by American standards). If they're reporting sympathetically, it's telling.

Not really.

[Zangi]

I don't know, they seem pretty integrated with al-Nusra now. They'd just set up an Islamist regime. If there's no returning pro-democracy forces we might as well let them and Assad kill each other.

From what I've read (on stuff like wikipedia admittedly) that isn't true at all. There have been small clashes between the FSA and al-Nusra over their extreme, conservative, islamist policies in rebel controlled zones. I read a statement from an FSA commander that basically stated the FSA and al-Nusra are allies now but will be post-war enemies. The FSA is also becoming more democratic by the day as huge numbers of islamists defect to al-Nusra (over a quarter of the FSA apparently). I know there are islamists in the FSA but I trust them more than Assad or al-Nusra, regardless of lung eating.

Also - "leaving them to it" is going to cause terrible suffering on both sides. I think we just have to intervene.

By virtue of people leaving the decision/voting process.  Technically more democratic.  Huzzah?

Also, 'will be post-war enemies' and over a quarter already defecting.  Isn't al-Nusra the more effective combat arm of the rebels?   /sarcasm Inspiring prospects in the future.

[10ebbor10]

Besides, it doesn't really matter much, which of the rebel groups wins the war, as we're going to end up with an islamist regime anyways. Either the more conservatist islamist wins, and directly installs a islamist states, or one of the more liberal groups wins, installs a democracy, and then the islamists will win the elections*.  More or less the same result.

*It's a story that happens quite often. Combination of a large, rural, religious population and after effects of colonization. (After decolonization, most states shifted to a more communist inspired/centrally planned style of economy. That didn't really work out, as leaders used the strong government and western aid to seize powers, and became dictators. Now that the dictators have been torn down, people have little faith in both capitalist or socialist policies, and hence vote for their religion. )

[Sheb]

But Islamists by itself is a terrible tool for categorizing political movement. It's like putting everyone from the Westboro Baptist Church to the German CSU including the Pope and Koni under the same "Chritianismism" banner.

I'd rather have an elected Muslim bortherhood than Afghanistan 2.0.

[Dutchling]

Both suck and do not justify any intervention whatsoever :/