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[Owlbread]

There seems to be the rumor flying around that the islamists among the rebels are getting a lot of support from al queda. While those seeking more general liberty have not been getting much support from the west.

The fear "what if we end up supporting the rebellion and it turns islamist?" seems to be headed towards "we didn't support the rebellion, so it turned islamist".

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ChairmanPoo]

Nice watch

[dwarfhoplite]

If the palestinians vote islamists to power in free election, the west say they voted wrong.

[Scoops Novel]

Also, some of the Islamists groups are pretty big and very organized.

There seems to be the rumor flying around that the islamists among the rebels are getting a lot of support from al queda. While those seeking more general liberty have not been getting much support from the west.

The fear "what if we end up supporting the rebellion and it turns islamist?" seems to be headed towards "we didn't support the rebellion, so it turned islamist".

I was wondering if i could get Bay12's thoughts on the effects of varying levels of support. I didn't mention it in my last post due to uncertainty on whether i was missing obvious inevitable fuckup's, but it's worth discussing regardless.

[Dutchling]

My thoughts about supporting anything in a war-torn country with an Islamists presence are summarized in the spoiler underneath.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

hell no

[misko27]

It seems a bit like getting involved has a potential for trouble equal to not getting involved.  Therefore, we must analyze benefits only, if doubts about the negatives are too confused.

So, Possible benefits to getting involved:

• Strengthening views of West. (Helping poor rebels.)
• Aiding Liberty or something along those lines.
• Increased chance for friendly government to arise.
• Quicker end to war. (A government regains control and terrorist groups operating through there are weakened.)

Benefits to not getting involved:

• Not having to deal with it. (Wash our hands of it. Not my problem.)
• No Chance of inflammatory mistakes.
• Something about Sovereignty and self-determination or some such bull.

Given these, I have to go with some form of limited involvement.

[Dutchling]

Did you read my summary? There are some interesting points there that might make you change your mind.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The thing is that there are effectively three main factions in the MENA nations. You've got the secular authoritarians (who have been hurt most by the Arab Spring), the pro-Western democrats, and the Islamists.

The first is screwed, but we need to help the second so the third doesn't take power.

[Nadaka]

Time and again I have seen my country take military action for fear, anger, oil, drugs. But when liberty and the lives of countless civilians are being snuffed out in the name of tyranny and oppression? Nothing. While a struggle for freedom and an end to nights of terror at the hands of one authoritarian police state is slowly usurped by another? Nothing. We are not the good guys, maybe we could be. Or maybe its to late, and this spark of hope for the liberation of mankind is fleeting.

Its shit covered stick that is on fire, but I would rather grab than stick than watch the world burn.

[Hiiri]

Or you could just piss on the stick.

[Another]

It seems a bit like getting involved has a potential for trouble equal to not getting involved.  Therefore, we must analyze benefits only, if doubts about the negatives are too confused.

So, Possible benefits to getting involved:

• Strengthening views of West. (Helping poor rebels.)
• Aiding Liberty or something along those lines.
• Increased chance for friendly government to arise.
• Quicker end to war. (A government regains control and terrorist groups operating through there are weakened.)

Benefits to not getting involved:

• Not having to deal with it. (Wash our hands of it. Not my problem.)
• No Chance of inflammatory mistakes.
• Something about Sovereignty and self-determination or some such bull.

Given these, I have to go with some form of limited involvement.

Actual benefits under consideration by anyone in power to do anything anywhere:

• Will it provide any monetary benefit to me/my relatives/my friends/people who pay for my re-election (the last one - especially in the US)?
• Will it be possible to spin to the electorally undecided part of the public in a way that will improve my party's seats of power?
• (Applies to minority of them.) Is this direction of events in accordance with my brand of religion teachings? (May be genuinely good or may advance end of the world.)

[10ebbor10]

Syrian internet got cut off recently. Phone traffic is apparenly down too.

GraphThingy

[Another]

That graph shows (if you scroll right) that for the last few hours the internet in Syria is back to previous levels.

[MaximumZero]

Syrian internet got cut off recently. Phone traffic is apparenly down too.

GraphThingy

Welp, time to go full Madagascar mode. Obviously, it's zombie apocalypse time.

[PTTG??]

It's been back up for a while now.