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[RedKing]

Heard about the Libya attack on the way into work this morning. Very difficult for me to compose a measured, rational response right now.

Immediate, gut response? FUCK ALL Y'ALL BITCHES.  Pull every last dollar of US aid. Have fun playing around in your big sandbox, motherfuckers.


I have several friends and former classmates working in the Foreign Service. I want to *be* in the Foreign Service, if they'd have me. These people were over there because they wanted to help the Libyan people. Ambassador Chris Stevens worked with the goddamn rebel army during the civil war. And for what? So they could get killed by a mob over some shitty hack job propaganda piece that they had nothing to do with?? GAAAAAAHHH...so much rage right now...

[MetalSlimeHunt]

This is what happens when piety is a higher value than liberty in a society. For a group that doesn't want to be stereotyped as angry and violent, a lot of Muslims in MENA sure are angry and violent.

While I can't say I'd be opposed to pulling US aid, pulling it from Lybia might squander the hard-earned goodwill the US has there and pulling it from Egypt will definitely mean that Israel and Egypt are going to war. But maybe that's what needs to happen.

[RedKing]

And it took domestic politics all of about five seconds to turn this into a political football. >_<

Screw it, I'm voting for Cthulhu in November. When things are this dysfunctional, the choice of the insane is the only sane choice.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

A 50 man strong Marine "fast team" trained in counter-terrorism has been dispatched to Lybia.

I've started hearing people trying to pass the ambassador's death off as "smoke inhalation". Yeah, smoke inhalation from the fucking rocket-propelled grenade they launched at his car.

I am also hearing statements that these were pro-Gaddafi elements trying to cause chaos, but it's mostly been Libyans saying that so I wouldn't trust such statements.

[Zrk2]

More info on the attacks:

This is the video responsible for the protests, called "The Innocence of Muslims."

The video was directed by an Israeli-American real estate developer called "Sam Bacile" who currently is hiding in the aftermath of the protests.

There are rumors about the involvement of Pastor Terry Jones as well in the movie. This is the person who previously threatened to burn the Quran and incurred massive protests from the Muslim world.

Similar protests launched yesterday in Cairo, Egypt. Around 3000 protestors marched to the U.S. embassy and scaled its walls, tore down the American flag and replaced it with a black flag. Their demands were to ban the video and present a formal apology to the Muslims.

The US ambassador J. Christopher Stevens was killed due to excessive inhalation of smoke due to the fire caused by the protesters

Uptil now, there are 3 other deaths confirmed among the consulate staff members, One of the staff members killed was a redditor and a well known EVE player. (credit to redditor Yod for this information)

Credit to Your_Socks of reddit for the original posting of this.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Similar protests launched yesterday in Cairo, Egypt. Around 3000 protestors marched to the U.S. embassy and scaled its walls, tore down the American flag and replaced it with a black flag.

Not just a black flag, but an al-Quieda-esq flag with the words "There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his messenger" on it.

EDIT: Oh, this is just lovely. From the Cairo riot:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Translation: Remember your black day on the 11th of September.

Ha. Ha. Fuck these people. I'm rethinking my whole position on this Arab Spring thing. I definitely don't think we should be helping the Syrians anymore.

[RedKing]

Ditto.
During the Cold War, we supported the despots who kept this shit under wraps, and it blew up in our face. Now we're trying the other approach and it's STILL blowing up in our face. 

[FearfulJesuit]

It's going to be a long few decades in the Middle East...

Eventually, you know, sustainable energy will become viable and the whole area will implode. Over the long term, that'll be a good thing; before vast amounts of oil were discovered in the region, it was a relatively irrelevant portion of the world. Someday, it will be again.

[Zrk2]

It's going to be a long few decades in the Middle East...

Eventually, you know, sustainable energy will become viable and the whole area will implode. Over the long term, that'll be a good thing; before vast amounts of oil were discovered in the region, it was a relatively irrelevant portion of the world. Someday, it will be again.

We can only hope.

[palsch]

There are rumors about the involvement of Pastor Terry Jones as well in the movie. This is the person who previously threatened to burn the Quran and incurred massive protests from the Muslim world.

The only connection I've seen with any serious validity is through the translator.

The original film only had a single slowing in a Californian cinema with next to no audience, plus that Youtube 'trailer' that got pretty well no attention. Then someone (by all reports a Coptic Egyptian living in America) created a translation into Egyptian Arabic and promised he would hold screenings.

It's this man who has claimed ties to Terry Jones, although it's not clear the ties are actually mutual or just him being a fan.



As for writing off the Arab spring and refusing help to Syria, what the fuck guys?

This is horrible and tragic and disgusting and reflects badly on Libya, Egypt, their new regimes and Islam in general. At the same time it isn't an excuse for not opposing dictators and despots. It's entirely possible to oppose, reject and combat this sort of religious violence and terror at the same time as opposing people like Assad. Not to mention supporting democratic uprisings in other Islamic nations.

[FearfulJesuit]

Well, the question, of course, is: what is to be done?

The real problem, I think, and one that we simply have never been able to comprehend, is that the Middle East is so undereducated, and its elites so far removed from the reality of the person on the street, that democracy will probably create more problems than it solves. America never had to deal with this issue because its electorate was (certainly for the time) highly educated, and more to the point had property.

I hate to come across as a Freeper, but there's a reason the American franchise was restricted to property owners before Jackson came along: democracy works best when everyone has a real stake in the system, ie, everyone is bourgeois (or thinks they are). Modern America, with its high rates of home ownership, low unemployment, good jobs, high education and wealth, makes a good candidate for democracy, all things considered. Egypt doesn't: its citizens are uneducated, unemployed, have a bad job if they have one at all, and have nothing to lose but their chains, which is going to create a government of demagogues.

[RedKing]

As for writing off the Arab spring and refusing help to Syria, what the fuck guys?

This is horrible and tragic and disgusting and reflects badly on Libya, Egypt, their new regimes and Islam in general. At the same time it isn't an excuse for not opposing dictators and despots. It's entirely possible to oppose, reject and combat this sort of religious violence and terror at the same time as opposing people like Assad. Not to mention supporting democratic uprisings in other Islamic nations.

Here's the problem when your options appear to be:
1. Have an anti-American dictator in charge.
2. Have an anti-American Islamist "democracy" in charge.

If #1 kills your citizens, you have a clear chain of responsibility and you can take retributive action. If Gaddafi had ordered an attack on the embassy, we go after Gaddafi. Simple, and because of the simplicity it's an effective deterrent.

If #2 kills your citizens, you go after...whom exactly? We're not going just going to indiscriminately bomb Libyan cities over this (marking us as somewhat more advanced than the 18th- and 19th-century European powers who totally would have shelled Benghazi if one of their diplomats had been killed). There's no deterrent effect to be had unles you're willing to stoop to medieval levels of brutality and collective punishment.

Bottom line: If they're gonna hate you anyway, better for them to be a dictatorship than a democracy. Much harder to deal with a hostile democracy in terms of response options. I guess what you're seeing, at least for MSH and me, is the death of the idea that Arab populations might possibly be capable of NOT hating the US and having fucking kneejerk reactions anytime some shithead disses their favored brand of superstition.

[Il Palazzo]

God knows that democracy is good for a country only if it's pro-American.

[RedKing]

From an American realist* POV? Yeah.

*(using the term realism strictly in the political science context, not a value judgement on what's true)


Or perhaps more accurately, "Democracy in a country is only good for the US if it's NOT anti-American."

[Nadaka]

You can't really condemn the democratic government of Libya yet. You have to see how they respond first.