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[Montague]

Willfor, that would be a pretty accurate assumption if it really applied to every soldier. Basic training and the early portions of a military career are indeed intended to change a soldier's thinking to some degree to adapt to the demands of the military, but really, after a while when soldiers demonstrate that they can perform well, they are given more responsibility and treated more like rational accountable adults and you can say that they are 'deprogrammed' to a degree. Collective punishment is very rare and actually discouraged in the operational military. These are also the soldiers that are the leaders making decisions. Should be noted that officers have little of "brainwashing" to the degree you describe. Whoever you quoted is probably a very new, junior soldier.

That said there is a cultural divide between military, mostly because civilians really do not have any idea what the military is like. Soldiers getting out of the military struggle to find jobs largely because of stereotypes of the sort that you are making, that they are brainwashed or they all have PTSD or psychological trauma and think they will probably flip out and knife the deep-fry kid if he is hired. Really, the cultural divide is overstated, the values the military likes are similar to civilian values, hard work, personal accountability, honesty, integrity, ect.

Anyways, I'm not really sure any analysis of US or western militarizes is accurate for the military of Egypt. Middle easterners, culturally, do not respond well to western training styles. They tend to get extremely offended if you even suggest that they have failed in some way or need improvement, or are even disciplined. Alot of these incidents you read about in the news of Iraqi or Afghan soldiers killing their western trainers is more because of bruised egos and arguments from western training styles then any sympathy or allegiance for their enemies.

[Willfor]

I was only attempting to depict the initial training phase, and addressing SalmonGod's question about how people in the military could follow orders the lead them against members of their own nation. I live about five minutes from a military base, and so I've come across a few stories on training and such. I'm well aware that as they get more experience things change, and I'm well aware that personality has a large effect and is not completely suborned to training. I was simply trying to paint a broad and general picture of a single phase that changes the game.

[Sheb]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/08/world/middleeast/egyptian-general-mokhtar-al-molla-asserts-continuing-control-despite-elections.html?_r=1&ref=world

Okay, so the Egyptian military decided that Parliament would have no power over the new constitution because the people cannot possibly have voted for islamists, right? It must be hard being a secularist in Egypt, stuck between the army and the Brotherhood.

[Gregory Stroganov]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/08/world/middleeast/egyptian-general-mokhtar-al-molla-asserts-continuing-control-despite-elections.html?_r=1&ref=world

Okay, so the Egyptian military decided that Parliament would have no power over the new constitution because the people cannot possibly have voted for islamists, right? It must be hard being a secularist in Egypt, stuck between the army and the Brotherhood.

It's always hard being a minority. Also, gotta love the army saying things like "We will stop the democratically elected government from doing things that the people don't want."

[ChairmanPoo]

For some reason I'm not surprised.

[Kogut]

It must be hard being a secularist in Egypt, stuck between the army and the Brotherhood.

or Christian (Copts) - wikipedia: "As a religious minority, the Copts are subject to significant discrimination in modern Egypt, and the target of attacks by militant Islamic extremist groups."

[Shinziril]

Hopefully if the new boss is the same as the old boss, they can remember what they did to the old boss . . .

[ChairmanPoo]

If you recall, the old boss got overthrown precisedly because the new one decided to sit on the sideline and not obey his orders to quell down the protests. Presumably he has taken precautions and placed someone loyal in charge of the riot squads.

[shadenight123]

i'd actually have to wonder though, how could the islamic brothers win the voting elections?
doesn't egypt give the vote to the women, too?
if they too voted for the islamic brothers, are you sure it's because of their free will, and not for forced brainwashing?
(bear with me a second as i explain "forced brainwashing")

i saw a documentary concerning women in islam, it went on late at night (obviously, why inform the population during the day at lunch?)
and it was interviewing women and asking them some of the following questions:
why are you following the islamic religion?
what are your aspiration?
wouldn't you like to dress european?

the answers were shocking.
"my father say i'll go to hell if i don't".
"my aspiration is to wear a more covering burqa, so i can go to heaven for sure"
"no, if i do i'll go to hell"

then the teachers of a elementary school was shown during one of the classes, and asked the children:
"SO who wants to get closer to heaven by wearing a *insert name of more covering outfit for women* ?"
the kids obviously raised their hands.
it was a female only class.

then you ask why the military doesn't wish to consider those vote?
it's brain washing.
starts from when you're a kid and goes on.

i am not saying islam is a bad religion, all religions are identically worthless in the eyes of an atheist. it's just that while in other countries the "hour" of religion occupies one hour, (and is usually about playing around with friends instead of doing thing religious related) in some countries it's an all day religious brainwashing.

the military know that. they excel in brainwashing too.

furthermore, there is racism towards non-islamic.
a single catholic priest cannot burn the quran or inquire the ire of islamics worldwide.
but islamics can and will kill copts, make terrorists attacks, burn down churches, burn down bibles, and get away with "we need to make war to terrorism! not islam!"
so yes, i'm with the military government. because you can't simply go on saying it's "democracy" when more than half the population is brainwashed, and the other half is male related and would thus suffer no problem.

famous the case of the arabs islamic princes who party hard and go with prostitutes just because they are the sons of imams.

[Phmcw]

Yeah, religious hypocrisy. Or hypocrisy in general.
The thing is, in a dictatorship, you have few chances at getting a smart population.
Let the Islamics win this round an the peoples to suffer their rule (instead of the slightly secular, "socialist" dictator), and you'll have a lot of resentment in no time.

Another thing is : US is playing a double game there, because while the GOP is slightly Islamophobic, they support and are strongly linked with Saudi Arabia who are the worst kind of Islamics, so the only dictatorship that got overthrown were the secular ones (remnant of USSR influence).

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Saudi Arabia's royal family being so unfathomably rich is at least partially to blame for the explosion of radical politicized Islam in the past few decades. The government lets the clergy spread whatever message they want, so long as they support (or at least do not denounce) the monarchy. This lets the government and the clergy co-exist relatively well; which is kind of rare in the Middle East and North Africa. More importantly, it means that the clergy in Saudi Arabia can spread the kind of insane messages that have spread across the whole region like wildfire.

Honestly, I wish the US would just embargo Saudi Arabia, because that will cut this problem at its root. Their oil isn't needed, and as someone who is informed about the atrocities of the Saudi Arabian government I don't want it either. It's easily a survivable supply drop; 70% of US oil still comes from Canada.

[PTTG??]

Even if only 10% of US oil came from Saudi Arabia, there would be breathtaking aftershocks if there was an embargo.

[Phmcw]

And what you'll actually do is to sell them your next gen awesome jet fighter because what could possibly go wrong with that?
(yes the F35)

[shadenight123]

Even if only 10% of US oil came from Saudi Arabia, there would be breathtaking aftershocks if there was an embargo.

solution is simple:
you have so much free space, i mean, solar panels? electricity generators that rely on wind force? geothermal? you have the dover dam i think that can generate a lot of electricity, so...better turbines? searching for fusion? maybe attaching a series of cyclettes and having americans run on it for electricity? (that would solve the high obesity rate) ignoring the last suggestion, that's quite a lot of stuff people could do, so why don't they do it?

[Il Palazzo]

Even if only 10% of US oil came from Saudi Arabia, there would be breathtaking aftershocks if there was an embargo.

solution is simple:
you have so much free space, i mean, solar panels? electricity generators that rely on wind force? geothermal? you have the dover dam i think that can generate a lot of electricity, so...better turbines? searching for fusion? maybe attaching a series of cyclettes and having americans run on it for electricity? (that would solve the high obesity rate) ignoring the last suggestion, that's quite a lot of stuff people could do, so why don't they do it?

Because oil is still cheaper than any of the alternatives.