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[Kogan Loloklam]

LCS?

Tunis allowing Alcohol and not outlawing homosexuality could cause it to become a localized Las Vegas of that area. Seeing as Tourism is a major industry for it, I think that was a wise choice on their part.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Edit 2: good news in Tunisia http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2011/10/26/353833/new-tunisian-government-promises-dignity-for-gays/

>islamist party
>homosexuality, atheism, alcohol, no veils,

What.

[Aqizzar]

>islamist party
>homosexuality, atheism, alcohol, no veils,

What.

Faith and begorrah, not every Islamic interpretation of politics is necessarily the Taliban?  Don't ask questions, you might jinx it.

[palsch]

It's an online petition, but the letter and initial signatories are the important part.

Interesting to see if it takes off at all.

[micelus]

Edit 2: good news in Tunisia http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2011/10/26/353833/new-tunisian-government-promises-dignity-for-gays/

>islamist party
>homosexuality, atheism, alcohol, no veils,

What.

See, religious parties can be tolerant.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Edit 2: good news in Tunisia http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2011/10/26/353833/new-tunisian-government-promises-dignity-for-gays/

>islamist party
>homosexuality, atheism, alcohol, no veils,

What.

See, religious parties can be tolerant.

I'll believe it when it's more than a campaign promise.

[micelus]

Still better than not mentioning those issues at all.

[Virex]

Edit 2: good news in Tunisia http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2011/10/26/353833/new-tunisian-government-promises-dignity-for-gays/

>islamist party
>homosexuality, atheism, alcohol, no veils,

What.

See, religious parties can be tolerant.

I'll believe it when it's more than a campaign promise.

That's a stricter requirement than the one usualy used for progressive parties...

[Felius]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15496608

Prosecutors stressed that Gaddafi's son, who is wanted for crimes against humanity, would get a fair trial.

I'm pretty sure if I was him I'd also vanish from the face of the Earth as soon as I could. Even if he actually gets a fair trial, that probably does not actually help him any.

[Kogan Loloklam]

It's an online petition, but the letter and initial signatories are the important part.

Interesting to see if it takes off at all.

I have to disagree.

Absolute separation of Church and State isn't necessary, and it's hard to achieve. Just look at the United States. I don't think they have to be secular. I do think they need to respect the rights of those who don't follow their faith though. I believe in a fundamental freedom of religion. I believe this freedom extends to the right of a nation to declare itself founded under religious principles. I don't think it works for the entire world, but I don't think there really is anything that works for the world. We are best if we are diverse, with many different forms of self governance. It would work even better if we would allow people to move freely, but that's a different issue.

I want to see a free press, the right to peacefully assemble, and the right to be whatever faith they want. Those are what would make me happy with the Middle East and North Africa. They can follow whatever odd set of laws they want, as long as they protect the freedom of press, freedom to assemble, and the freedom of religion.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Absolute separation of Church and State isn't necessary, and it's hard to achieve.

Yes it is, on both counts. Without a secular state the corrupting influence of religious law will seep into all aspects of life. Few things are more pervasive, and such an influence is asking for radicalism.

Just look at the United States.

The United States has some of the strongest separation of church and state on the planet, and this is because it is necessary. Without it, extremist Christian elements would have long since destroyed any semblance of freedom or democracy, similar to activities in the McCarthy era, except in all levels of life and forever.

I do think they need to respect the rights of those who don't follow their faith though. I believe in a fundamental freedom of religion.

That isn't likely to happen outside of a secular state. It does, but it's not a stable or common thing.

I believe this freedom extends to the right of a nation to declare itself founded under religious principles.

Most nations that declare that in law are closer to Iran then they are to Western nations.

We are best if we are diverse, with many different forms of self governance.

And why is that? Everywhere that secular democracies have spread have prospered, everywhere that theocratic or not-so-theocratic autocracies have not. This is not to say that a poor secular democracy isn't impossible, but it's certainly the exception, not the rule.

I want to see a free press, the right to peacefully assemble, and the right to be whatever faith they want. Those are what would make me happy with the Middle East and North Africa. They can follow whatever odd set of laws they want, as long as they protect the freedom of press, freedom to assemble, and the freedom of religion.

Part of freedom of religion is freedom from religion; or more specifically from the very religious laws you mark as odd. If they are allowed, then freedom of religion is in jeopardy, as are most other freedoms.

The Middle East and North Africa need secularism more than almost anything else. Islamism (and especially it's more radical incarnations) is the biggest problem in the Middle East and North Africa when it comes to setting up free societies, and secularism is the only solution to peacefully divorce Islam and politics, even if only partially.

[Kogan Loloklam]

Okay, if you wanna pick this apart...

The United States has some of the strongest separation of church and state on the planet, and this is because it is necessary. Without it, extremist Christian elements would have long since destroyed any semblance of freedom or democracy, similar to activities in the McCarthy era, except in all levels of life and forever.

Tell that to the thousands of Atheist soldiers whom we have who are forced to bow their heads every single time a stupid Battalion formation is done. Or Wiccans who need to bow to a god who isn't theirs. It was interesting to learn that it was Manditory to either attend Catholic or Protestant mass on the first Sunday in Bootcamp. According to the United States Armed Forces, there is a god and we all must pay homage to him. Since the United States Armed Forces is very much a state body, this is solid and convincing evidence there is a problem with the understanding of the separation they are supposed to have.
No, we aren't anywhere near separation of Church and state in the United States. In fact, the only difference I noticed from Muslim-Dominated Bahrain and the United States when it came to religious freedoms was Bahrain had these nice towers where they shouted their religion across the city. Bahrain isn't a secular state although it allows religious freedom, so...

That isn't likely to happen outside of a secular state. It does, but it's not a stable or common thing.

is proven false. I faced more religious discrimination for being Non-Christian in the Military than I faced from a Islamic nation. Granted I was serving as a member of a foreign nation, but I was openly wearing religious paraphernalia that was not Islamic in nature, and didn't get a drop of the kind of crap from Bahrainis like I got from my "brothers in arms" when I was back in the states.
Have you ever even been to a Non-secular state? They aren't as bad as you think.

Most nations that declare that in law are closer to Iran then they are to Western nations.

Damn Norway! Always screwing up that "All" for you. Then there are those terrorist nations like Argentina which hold a special place in their constitutions for Religions without making them official. You know who proves you right though? Israel. They are much closer in law to Iran than they are any western country.

And why is that? Everywhere that secular democracies have spread have prospered, everywhere that theocratic or not-so-theocratic autocracies have not. This is not to say that a poor secular democracy isn't impossible, but it's certainly the exception, not the rule.

And places where secular autocracies have spread? I wonder if your problem is that you are comparing apples to oranges to find out the color of a kiwi?

Part of freedom of religion is freedom from religion; or more specifically from the very religious laws you mark as odd. If they are allowed, then freedom of religion is in jeopardy, as are most other freedoms.

There are a lot of odd laws out there. Not all are religious. How about you go through the Islamic laws, and determine exactly what percentage of them you find aren't acceptable. You'll find the percentage lower than you think. I know, this requires thinking. I'd give you the magic number for you, but what I find acceptable and what others find acceptable are two different things. Do you know how much of Modern Secular United State's legal code is based on assumptions that only exist because of the Judeo-Christian roots that the country has? Someday I want to be free of Christianity. That is my goal in life. I figure about 1000 years or so after my death I have a real shot at it.

The Middle East and North Africa need secularism more than almost anything else. Islamism (and especially it's more radical incarnations) is the biggest problem in the Middle East and North Africa when it comes to setting up free societies, and secularism is the only solution to peacefully divorce Islam and politics, even if only partially.

That is false. The biggest problem in the Middle East and North Africa in setting up free societies is overcoming the years of abuse and neglect that the foreign-sponsored Dictatorships did to the ability to make a trustworthy government that represents the wishes of the people. Part of this comes from us forcing what we think is right on them without respecting what they really care about. Like their religion, for instance. People over there are killing themselves about it, you'd think maybe we shouldn't dismiss it as complete garbage out of hand and respect that they, at least, believe it?

[Zangi]

Okay, if you wanna pick this apart...

The United States has some of the strongest separation of church and state on the planet, and this is because it is necessary. Without it, extremist Christian elements would have long since destroyed any semblance of freedom or democracy, similar to activities in the McCarthy era, except in all levels of life and forever.

Tell that to the thousands of Atheist soldiers whom we have who are forced to bow their heads every single time a stupid Battalion formation is done. Or Wiccans who need to bow to a god who isn't theirs. It was interesting to learn that it was Manditory to either attend Catholic or Protestant mass on the first Sunday in Bootcamp. According to the United States Armed Forces, there is a god and we all must pay homage to him. Since the United States Armed Forces is very much a state body, this is solid and convincing evidence there is a problem with the understanding of the separation they are supposed to have.
No, we aren't anywhere near separation of Church and state in the United States. In fact, the only difference I noticed from Muslim-Dominated Bahrain and the United States when it came to religious freedoms was Bahrain had these nice towers where they shouted their religion across the city. Bahrain isn't a secular state although it allows religious freedom, so...
*snip*

As someone growing up in the US, I've always had the impression that religion has a very strong influence on our gov't... local and state.  Doesn't help that the Federal/Congress tier tends to like to stick religious stuff up in their shit too... even if we have the Judicial branch or whatever telling them to sod off on some of that stuff.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Tell that to the thousands of Atheist soldiers whom we have who are forced to bow their heads every single time a stupid Battalion formation is done. Or Wiccans who need to bow to a god who isn't theirs. It was interesting to learn that it was Manditory to either attend Catholic or Protestant mass on the first Sunday in Bootcamp. According to the United States Armed Forces, there is a god and we all must pay homage to him. Since the United States Armed Forces is very much a state body, this is solid and convincing evidence there is a problem with the understanding of the separation they are supposed to have.
No, we aren't anywhere near separation of Church and state in the United States. In fact, the only difference I noticed from Muslim-Dominated Bahrain and the United States when it came to religious freedoms was Bahrain had these nice towers where they shouted their religion across the city. Bahrain isn't a secular state although it allows religious freedom, so...

That isn't likely to happen outside of a secular state. It does, but it's not a stable or common thing.

is proven false. I faced more religious discrimination for being Non-Christian in the Military than I faced from a Islamic nation. Granted I was serving as a member of a foreign nation, but I was openly wearing religious paraphernalia that was not Islamic in nature, and didn't get a drop of the kind of crap from Bahrainis like I got from my "brothers in arms" when I was back in the states.

Yes, horrible injustices. It would be unimaginably worse if the wall between Church and State in the US were any lower. That was my point.

Have you ever even been to a Non-secular state? They aren't as bad as you think.

No, I quite enjoy being alive. I sometimes get concerns about my safety as an atheist even here in the US, I wouldn't set foot in any religious state outside of Europe if you paid me.

Most nations that declare that in law are closer to Iran then they are to Western nations.

Damn Norway! Always screwing up that "All" for you. Then there are those terrorist nations like Argentina which hold a special place in their constitutions for Religions without making them official. You know who proves you right though? Israel. They are much closer in law to Iran than they are any western country.

The hell? I didn't say "all". I said "most". I am fully aware of the European nations that are unsecular. The difference there is that religiosity is very low compared to the Middle East and Africa (as well as the US, for that matter). This limits the harm of not having a secular state immensely. But that's not the case in the Middle East and Africa, which is why secularism is such a vital thing to develop there. 

And places where secular autocracies have spread? I wonder if your problem is that you are comparing apples to oranges to find out the color of a kiwi?

Secular autocracies are still autocracies. There aren't all that many of them, there's China, I suppose.

How about you go through the Islamic laws, and determine exactly what percentage of them you find aren't acceptable. You'll find the percentage lower than you think.

I sincerely doubt that. You'll also have to define what constitutes an Islamic law.

I know, this requires thinking.

Personal attacks are against the rules.

Do you know how much of Modern Secular United State's legal code is based on assumptions that only exist because of the Judeo-Christian roots that the country has?

Not all that much. A good deal of the Founding Fathers were quite un-Christian, a significant number of deists among them. They wrote the Constitution, which has nothing to do with "Judeo-Chrisitan" ideas (that also being very hard to define). The Constitution is the basis of all US law, or at least that's what the government tries to live up to, and so it follows that the law has little to thank religion for.

That is false. The biggest problem in the Middle East and North Africa in setting up free societies is overcoming the years of abuse and neglect that the foreign-sponsored Dictatorships did to the ability to make a trustworthy government that represents the wishes of the people.

Iran tried to meet that ideal. Iran got a theocracy because secularism got thrown out with the Shah, and now has one of the worst human rights records in the world.

Part of this comes from us forcing what we think is right on them without respecting what they really care about. Like their religion, for instance. People over there are killing themselves about it, you'd think maybe we shouldn't dismiss it as complete garbage out of hand and respect that they, at least, believe it?

I don't care if they practice their religion or not. That they believe it does not concern or bother me. For all I care about that aspect every imam in the Middle East in North Africa can spread any message; from that only way to get to paradise is to kill every non-Muslim in the world to utter pacifism and peace towards everyone, everywhere, forever, and every message in between. I will only be concerned about any religion from a legal standpoint if secularism is lacking, because if it is not, then the actual power in the region will be at least somewhat resistant to religious influence. As a matter of fact, Muslims would be a lot more free to practice their faith under a secular state than a religious one, especially considering the rather unpleasant tension that exists between Sunnis and Shias/Shi'ites in some areas.

I don't disagree about the abuse and neglect standpoint (although the point about the dictatorships being foreign-sponsored is rather blanketing), but it certainly isn't the only important aspect by far, and I put developing a secular state on the same level. Hence avoiding a repeat of the Iran issue.

[scriver]

Absolute separation of Church and State isn't necessary, and it's hard to achieve.

Yes it is, on both counts. Without a secular state the corrupting influence of religious law will seep into all aspects of life. Few things are more pervasive, and such an influence is asking for radicalism.

Even the state of Sweden, the third most atheistic country in Europe (and therefore, I foolishly assume, the world), isn't completely separated from the Swedish Church. Granted, over here it's mostly the state dominating the Church, the 19th century way, but still. I consider it very embarrasing (though surprisingly easy to forget) that those ties haven't been cut yet.