Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[lordnincompoop]

This is continued from the topic "So what is sweetbread?" in Dwarf Mode Discussion that was tragically derailed.
The questions being addressed, as far as I can tell, are as follows:

• Is the consumption of offal "normal"?
• Are there significant disadvantages to it, and if so is it worth pursuing despite these?
• What issues arise from the consumption of meat, or the production of it? Are these valid points?
• Does vegetarianism/veganism adequately address these issues? If not, how can they be adequately addressed?
• Is vegetarianism/veganism cheaper to maintain?
• What reasons do people have for becoming vegetarians, and are these reasons logical and reasonable?

Now, as with any debate, there are guidelines:

• Do not make ad hominem attacks, meaning attacks on the debater him/herself, even if you see someone else do it. This is bad form, not to mention both ruse and inappropriate. If you find yourself typing one out, take a step back and relax for a while. This is the stuff that gets threads locked, and people punished. We do not want that. If you see somebody make these, do not hesitate to report them.
• Back up your statements with some sources, especially those based in fact/statistics, instead of pulling them out of your ass. It's bad and nobody likes that. How to support an argument, here and here too. Note that simply throwing out evidence won't work.
• When making an argument, try to elaborate and clarify so that people can argue against it well. The Time Cube is a stellar example of an unclear argument.
• Try not to be too facetious. Chances are somebody will take you seriously and react badly.

If you participated in the other thread, do not just say "oh, I argued this already so go check there" or make other vague references. Always quote your posts, in the name of Clarity.

Remember that this is a debate. This means that in posting, you are supposed to argue for and against, read other people's posts and respond to them. Do not just state your position and leave. This is unconstructive, and will only clog up the thread.

This is not a thread about your favourite vegetarian dish, the most recent Cutest Puppy Pageant, loltrolls and similar. Take those elsewhere.

Oh, and this (thanks, Bauglir!)

Arguments That Are Not Original

"Your Argument Is Not Original" (Without Reference To An Earlier Occurrence Which Was Resolved)

"You're Stupid For Posting Here, This Thread Will Never Get Anywhere"

Feel free to suggest improvements to the OP.

[Tellemurius]

if you frigging know what you need to eat as a vegan you're good to go. the main problem with plants is that most do not have the complete protein complexes meat has that you need. To circumvent meat you have to eat rice and beans for the protein you need. I'll still eat meat but i have been edging away from the corn fed stuff and been eating game meat or fresh fish that i catch.

[Miggy]

I think the main point people with vegetarian diets or vegan diets accomplish is an actually planned diet. It isn't as much the fact that all meat is bad and you should not eat it ever, but more the fact that most people, who also happen to eat meat, think very little about what exactly they tuck in their mouthes, and end up eating regular garbage. People who plan actual vegetarian or vegan diets carefully consider every part to their meal, to ensure that they gain as many nutrients as they require. If a regular meat-eater did the same, he could come up with a just as healthy alternative, including meat eaten often.

But a vegetarian diet over a mindless, "I'm hungry I'll just eat this thing in front of me" diet is definitely going to end up more healthy.

[Bauglir]

-snip-

[rephikul]

Is Vegetarianism/Veganism healthy? Should the diet be attempted?

That's totally not the question. Most vegetarianism diets are proven to be perfectly healthy. The question is:
Why do people adopt vegetarianism and is their reasoning sane and logical? Ditto to canivorism.

[Tellemurius]

Try hunting for some healthier meat or fishing.

[Bauglir]

-snip-

[Nikov]

• Is Vegetarianism/Veganism healthy? Should the diet be attempted?

Not automatically, do whatever you want in your own private life.

• Is pursuing a carnivorous diet healthy? Should it be attempted?

Yes, I don't even understand this question. My children seemed pretty much programmed to consume a non-plant food source right from birth.

• Is the consumption of offal "normal"?

Yes, insofar as "normal" can ever be used in a half-reasonable discussion on the internet.

• Are there significant disadvantages to it, and if so is it worth pursuing despite these?

Seems overpriced sometimes, but sure. I wouldn't eat a tripe salad with chopped liver and a kidney pie for desert every day, though.

• What ethical issues arise from the consumption of meat, or the production of it? Are these valid points?

None, so no points to invalidate. Probably some emotional nonsense to some, however. Again, private life.

• Does vegetarianism/veganism adequately address there issues? If not, how can they be adequately addressed?

Once you ignore how many animals are killed each year per acre of wheat you can rationalize your way out of anything. So sure.

• Is vegetarianism/veganism cheaper to maintain?

Cardboard boxes are cheaper than a house, so yes. Unless you shop at Whole Foods or something. So probably not possible to determine either way.

Well here's my opinions getting checked at the door. Also I can't get rid of this stupid close-list html tag. Its nowhere in my reply until I preview it. Anyhow, I think you could summarize me as "too old to care anymore about this stuff so do whatever". My only real question is how you can call it 'carnivorism'. Its default. Babies consume secreted fatty cell membrane pockets awash in fluids secreted by a female animal from birth and have no problem with it, but they develop allergies to fruits and vegetables. So I'm a little confused why we're not debating attempting omnivorism instead.[/list]

[lordnincompoop]

Carnivorism here meaning a meat-only diet.

I suppose I should fill in the thing I made too.

• Is the consumption of offal "normal"?

Yes.

• Are there significant disadvantages to it, and if so is it worth pursuing despite these?

There are hazards, such as kuru etc. from brain matter, but offal is often safe to consume and is a feature in many popular dishes. Not to mention sausages often contain offal.

• What issues arise from the consumption of meat, or the production of it? Are these valid points?

There are many. There are concerns about animal welfare and cruelty, the heavy-handedness of fishing, domestication of animals, and dietary issues. All of these can be valid points. The dolphin hunting industry is ongoing, for example, despite disapproval.

• Does vegetarianism/veganism adequately address these issues? If not, how can they be adequately addressed?

In opting for vegetarianism, one is effectively boycotting these industries. This is one way to protest these changes, and it is enough for many, but active protest is more likely to bring results.

• Is vegetarianism/veganism cheaper to maintain?

It can be. At least here, however, vegetarian options in restaurants for example are few and far between and often more expensive.

• What reasons do people have for becoming vegetarians, and are these reasons logical and reasonable?

Many people are also vegetarians because of religious reasons. This, in itself is perfectly reasonable. As for ethical reasons, I believe a more prudent approach would be to protest actively, not passively. This will most likely have a greater effect, as I said before. Not all are willing to do this though, and that's perfectly fine.

blar blar broken list tags

[/list]

[Phmcw]

Tasty, tasty meat...
But yes, vegetarian diet pollute less, is more healthy when done rightly and avoid animal suffering compared to eating a lot of junk meat.
Now animal suffering may be addressed by a more ethical treatment of animals, eating the right amount of meat is just as healthy as a vegetarian diet, and pollution is to be addressed anyway.
So kudo for those who do it, but I won't abandon my veal liver, sweetbread, tripe or kidney.  (actually, if you go for a low on meat diet, those meat are the best.)

[Argembarger]

• Is the consumption of offal "normal"?

Yes

• Are there significant disadvantages to it, and if so is it worth pursuing despite these?

As much as specifically choosing to eat anything else

• What issues arise from the consumption of meat, or the production of it? Are these valid points?

Unfortunately, the people with legitimate points get drowned out by people spreading mindless shock-propaganda. At least, to my experience.

I do believe that "pure organic farming" is kind of silly, though.

• Does vegetarianism/veganism adequately address these issues? If not, how can they be adequately addressed?

Do what feels good, yo.

• Is vegetarianism/veganism cheaper to maintain?

Lol, organic milk. Vegetarianism is cheaper than veganism, that's for sure.

• What reasons do people have for becoming vegetarians, and are these reasons logical and reasonable?

Hate the taste of meat - sure
Care about the ethical treatment of animals - depends.
     -Do you hate hunters? Would you rather see these animals go through a population explosion and die of starvation? (Because, you know, we drove out all their natural predators)
     -Do you value animals more than people?
     -Would you be willing to go to a culture different than your own and tell them what they are doing is wrong?
Other reason - depends.

[G-Flex]

Unfortunately, the people with legitimate points get drowned out by people spreading mindless shock-propaganda. At least, to my experience.

Yes. For what it's worth, I know exactly one person who is a vegan (that I know of), and she isn't a PETA shill. Those people give a bad name to basically anyone associated with any of their alleged causes.

Do you hate hunters? Would you rather see these animals go through a population explosion and die of starvation? (Because, you know, we drove out all their natural predators)

To be fair, this is our fault to begin with, and even without many natural predators, a prey population will gradually reach an equilibrium point over time; it's happened in the past. It's just worse in the short-term.

-Do you value animals more than people?
-Would you be willing to go to a culture different than your own and tell them what they are doing is wrong?

I don't think many vegetarians or vegans would try to force such a lifestyle upon people for whom it isn't feasible, so I don't think these are very relevant points. After all, people have to do what they have to do in order to survive.

[Argembarger]

Right; the points I gave were kind of intended to be invalid, to make a point. It's like, if you agree with those statements, you're probably a vegetarian for a reason you haven't fully thought through.

Annoyingly enough, I know people who hold some of those beliefs, like they don't want to see animals die, unless they are ugly / a nuisance / scary or something.

I've also had run-ins with a couple of particularly outspoken vegans, who definitely try to force their lifestyle on others.

I know and understand that the side of the issue I've seen is a somewhat bad one and that most vegetarians are cool people, but yeah... it happens. Shortsighted or hypocritical folks. (Plenty on both sides, of course)

I enjoy meat but I would be open to the veggie lifestyle. I definitely couldn't handle being a vegan though; I love eggs and dairy and other byproducts too much for that.

[DJ]

Yeah, I'm not buying the health benefits bit. Nutritionism isn't really an exact science, what was considered good a decade ago is now bad, and vice versa, and as far as I can see the opinions will just keep flipping. I'm just gonna keep eating a mix of foods from all food groups, because I'm at least fairly sure that a varied diet is good for me.

[Omegastick]

I care not about what I eat. If it is edible I eat it. It's things like this for which I love my metabolism.