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[Gimmick Account]

Eh, I like that as is. Keeps them threatening, in my opinion. I'd prefer something more like a resistance roll.

A resistance roll wouldn't solve this situation, though, since all the lower ranks would get it too, in addition to the juice buffer they already have now.

[Grimith]

One thing I'm glad to change is that you won't be prompted to pick locks if you don't have someone with security skill -- it'll go straight to the bash prompt.

Sounds good to me. However, I like the Juice settings as they are. As Think0028 noted, the perilous hang right at 1000 Juice "keeps [Conservative persuasion attacks] threatening." The bite of Wisdom increases as a character gets older, so it's possible Common Sense may be dangerously revealed by a Radio Personality or Eminent Scientist. In such circumstances, even the most Elite Liberal could be shaken.

[Innominate]

I hate persuasion attacks with an absolute passion. Lower skilled fighting groups can be destroyed by an elite Conservative when it's buffered by enough cannon fodder - one persuade reduces juice and (potentially?) makes them go into "questioning" mode. If you don't have enough firepower to kill 4-5 man groups with only 5 of your liberals actually fighting, or enough dodge to survive a round intact, you can be wiped out if you're too far in the site.

Which says to me it's perfect as is. I don't quite like it from a 'fairness' perspective (why do our elite liberals lose juice by being talked to but we need guitars to do the same to elite Conservatives?), but it seems dead on the money from a balance perspective. The persuasive elite Conservatives should be feared as much as the combative ones. When you're fleeing from a site and you see 5 security guards and an eminent scientist, you should be terrified.

[Gimmick Account]

I don't find those arguments convincing at all, but at least they weren't delivered in the form of an emotional rant this time.

Can we at least try this for one release, like we did with the 'declared/undeclared' actions?

[Grimith]

An emotional rant? Indeed not. I found the snark useful in conveying my overbearing distaste of the OP, which, offhand, still exists. Now, in reflecting upon the topic, I noticed you earlier noted that a squad of Liberals with +20 attributes would be "in grave danger every time they venture out of their safehouses in nightmare mode." Naturally, I once again disagree, for I believe the game to be spectacularly easy. Of course, I am amused you'd like to deaden one of the few effective attacks the Conservatives have at their disposal because it "is rather annoying," so perhaps this is a way to lessen such grave danger, though you may be able to educate me on the perilous nature of the game. Another concept I don't understand is why you're even bothering to advocate a limit at all. Why don't you go full gung-ho like you did with attributes and just request for an abolishment of the limit? That way, Elite Liberals could continue to accumulate Juice for their great deed, ultimately resulting in being nigh-immune to the loss of rank. What's the point of even having an artificial limit? Let's have beyond human juice accumulation to go along with our beyond human attribute growth, right? Again, no, but at least that sounds more sensible.

[Gimmick Account]

An emotional rant? Indeed not. I found the snark useful in conveying my overbearing distaste of the OP, which, offhand, still exists. Now, in reflecting upon the topic, I noticed you earlier noted that a squad of Liberals with +20 attributes would be "in grave danger every time they venture out of their safehouses in nightmare mode." Naturally, I once again disagree, for I believe the game to be spectacularly easy. Of course, I am amused you'd like to deaden one of the few effective attacks the Conservatives have at their disposal because it "is rather annoying,"

It's almost like a law of nature that every internet forum seems to have at least one pompous, belligerent ass.

I never called the persuasion attacks annoying, just the fact that they would instantly reduce a character's stats at the highest level (something that would usually not happen at lower levels). Everything you posted after that was based on this fictional opinion of mine and isn't even worth quoting.

[Think0028]

An emotional rant? Indeed not. I found the snark useful in conveying my overbearing distaste of the OP, which, offhand, still exists. Now, in reflecting upon the topic, I noticed you earlier noted that a squad of Liberals with +20 attributes would be "in grave danger every time they venture out of their safehouses in nightmare mode." Naturally, I once again disagree, for I believe the game to be spectacularly easy. Of course, I am amused you'd like to deaden one of the few effective attacks the Conservatives have at their disposal because it "is rather annoying," so perhaps this is a way to lessen such grave danger, though you may be able to educate me on the perilous nature of the game.

Jeez, dude. Normally I agree with you, but it seems to me you're going a bit far here.

1) He does have a point that the attack does have an additional penalty that only exists at the juice cap.
2) Removing the 20 point cap really only does so much: for someone with a starting stat of 14 instead of 10, they'll end up rolling one extra 1d6 for ability checks at the juice cap. It's a fairly minor difference that only adjusts your average by a tiny amount at high skill levels, and really only has meaning for low skill levels.
3) You've been going on for a long time about how the game is extremely easy and that's really starting to rub me the wrong way. It's not easy: ask anyone who hasn't been playing it for the last 10-20 odd releases. It has a sharp learning curve, and even when you know what you're doing, you need to be careful.

[Grimith]

Though I may be overzealous, I wouldn't bother posting unless I believed my points had merit. Still, I apparently misunderstood one of Gimmick Account's points, and, equally unfortunate, I assumed a derogatory stance in my counter. I don't agree at all with the suggested changes, but at least suggestions were made in the hope of improving the game, something I can't say I did in this topic.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

I'm considering two possibilities regarding juice.

1. Keep it as it is now.
2. Reduce juice gains to their normal level, which is half the rate it is currently, and reduce the threshold of Elite Liberal to 900/1000 juice.

[Zangi]

I'm considering two possibilities regarding juice.

1. Keep it as it is now.
2. Reduce juice gains to their normal level, which is half the rate it is currently, and reduce the threshold of Elite Liberal to 900/1000 juice.

Reduced Juice = More Grinding + More Crimes + Less Chance of Survival

Can't say I like the trade-off to add a minor convenience. My issue is with the Grinding.

[nenjin]

While some activities, in the end, produce far more juice for far less effort (but usually greater risk)....I don't know if cutting all juice gains by half is such a great idea. In general I want members at 100 juice before they start doing anything important. After that point, I can accept more time to reach elite liberal, so you can sort of appreciate the slower, riskier arc of their growth.

But if a 1/2 reduction means getting people to that basic level of functionality becomes a pain in the ass....I'd suggest something more like a graduated scale applied to all juice gains, relevant to your current juice.

[Sheb]

Or just keep the juice rate, but raise the threshold for Elite Liberal to 1800, with the juice cap at 2000?

[Gimmick Account]

I'm considering two possibilities regarding juice.

1. Keep it as it is now.
2. Reduce juice gains to their normal level, which is half the rate it is currently, and reduce the threshold of Elite Liberal to 900/1000 juice.

I'm all for the second option here. If reaching Revolutionary level (100 juice, currently) is a problem (in terms of motivating yourself to do it all over again with a new character, doesn't even have to be due to actual game difficulty), one could rearrange the point thresholds for all the ranks, instead of just the top two ones.

This is what we have now:

Damn Worthless   -50
Society's Dregs   -49 to -11
Punk         -10 to -1
Civilian      0 to 9
Activist      10 to 49
Socialist Threat   50 to 99
Revolutionary   100 to 199
Urban Commando   200 to 499
Liberal Guardian   500 to 999
Elite Liberal      1000

Here's my recommendation:

Damn Worthless   -50
Society's Dregs   -49 to -11
Punk         -10 to -1
Civilian      0 to 9
Activist      10 to 24
Socialist Threat   25 to 59
Revolutionary   60 to 174
Urban Commando   175 to 399
Liberal Guardian   400 to 899
Elite Liberal      900 to 1000

The jump from Urban Commando to Liberal Guardian is still pretty huge, in terms of percentage; But at this point you already have a very capable operative at your disposal, so it shouldn't annoy you nearly as much.

Note that it is currently quite easy to quickly level new characters all the way to the top by having them cause (violent) trouble in one of the unpoliced areas of the city, especially if you send an experienced 'mentor' along to keep them safe. But that's more an issue with the rate of juice currently awarded for combat, than with the system as a whole. Maybe juice gains in combat should depend on opponent difficulty?

[Zangi]

The slums loophole is going to get closed.

I prefer raising the threshhold over 1/2 juice gains...  at least then, you have a bigger juice buffer...

[EuchreJack]

I fail to see how halving the current juice gains will really matter.  Course, I played the game when there was a strict "20 point max juice per site visit" cap.  Once that was removed, the rate of juice gain failed to be significant.  Just kill more Conservatives.

So, I'm for halving juice gains, and making 900/1000 the new limit for the highest rating.