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[PenguinOverlord]

If we get to perma-kill christians, I'm in.

What makes you think it is okay to say or think stuff like this?

What makes you think it is okay for you to question what I say or think?

Like others pointed out, it's a game in Salem. I take the witch/pagan side.

Holy crap, is that what they look like? Hahahah.

The fuck?



It's like... Pokemon for the DS graphics.

They said that they are alpha graphics and they will be replaced, but the game is intended to be cartoony.

[ScriptWolf]

Still looks like something a 2 yearold could draw

[Farseer]

Still looks like something a 2 yearold could draw

Isn't that all manga? 

[Vel]

Salem wasn't about Christians burning Pagans for their beliefs.

It was about Christians burning other Christians either out of insane paranoid fervor or greed (guess what happened to the stuff the 'witches' owned after they died)


Also, this will fail utterly, because permadeath does not work. Why? Because community moderation doesn't happen. Most people only look out for number 1, and they only look out for number 1 insofar as their immediate situation dictates. They aren't going to go off hunting down the throwaway accounts of a group of 12 year olds who just re-make their ganking characters every time they happen to die, since a new player can't stand up to a bunch of other new players either.

[Soulwynd]

Don't be silly, permadeath works just fine. You just have a lot more tension when playing it.

I used to play a certain MMO in beta with permadeath turned on only. It was incredible. Your life depended on other players and since you could only group with permadeath on people (when you had it on, of course), the tension in dungeons was incredible and heart pounding, since you could lose days of work in a snap.

It was great.

[Frumple]

Apply PvP to Permadeath greatness. Add griefers. Stir. No more greatness

That said, the easiest way to see how PvP permadeath plays out would probably be to check out MUDs and suchlike. I don't really pay attention to the things anymore, but they've gotta' still have a few of the bloody buggers running around.

[mithra]

Don't be silly, permadeath works just fine. You just have a lot more tension when playing it.

I used to play a certain MMO in beta with permadeath turned on only. It was incredible. Your life depended on other players and since you could only group with permadeath on people (when you had it on, of course), the tension in dungeons was incredible and heart pounding, since you could lose days of work in a snap.

It was great.

You had the choice to play with permadeath or not.  There is no choice in Salem/H&H.  There's a reason why no major MMO has automatic permadeath: it doesn't work.  I also note you said "lose days of work in a snap".  A MMO won't succeed if people only play for days instead of months or years, and people will not be happy if they stand to lose months or years of work.

[Dakk]

The massive skill grind in order to do anything meaningful in H&H is what killed it for me. For a game that once focused on letting player interaction be the driving engine of the game, it fell flat on its face when you had to grind nonstop for a full week in order to hunt anything bigger then a bunch of insects. Grinding means more time doing boring repetitive tasks and less player interaction.

What I loved about H&H was the outdoors factor. You had to travel real far to get anywhere and you had to keep yourself fed and safe from animals and etc, it felt immersive and fun. When I finally got to a village and settled in, now it was all about doing the same thing over and over to get higher levels of skills so you can do other repetitive tasks better.

I'm not saying that one can make a online game using a vaguely RPGesque system without some grinding, but you need to at the very least reward people for all that time they spent training their skills, actual rewards, not just bigger numbers. Hellmoo does it with mutations and other things, WoW uses other areas, flying mounts, etc. H&H basicaly just tells you "congratz! Now you can do that very same thing, just slightly better, a winrar is you!"

Also, those are some terrible graphic choices there. So yea, sad to say but if it borrows on H&H's style, I hope its only the positive ones, I don't really feel like grinding for nothing again.

[GlyphGryph]

Permadeath works, but the formula is different than for traditional MMOs.

The MMOs I played the longest and enjoyed the most ALL had permadeath.

I've even seen multiple ways for it to succeed!

Option 1: Make leveling and skill gain fairly easy, with death as an expected, natural, and core component of the gameplay. Good for "easy fun" oriented games, and can cut down on griefers if implemented correctly. If you're encouraging an environment of exploration and risk taking, where perma-death means your character is killed, but you enjoyed the process leading up to it, then you wont mind so much creating another one. Competitive play in games of this sort can turn into "marathons" where players compete over who can stay at the top of their game the longest, rather than who can get there the quickest or become the very best, very different from most MMOs. Can also be effective in games where building and creating your character is half the game. (and then, essentially, testing to see if you did it right)

Option 2: Unlock better abilities and newer options by having made notable accomplishments in "past lives". Players who have created characters with long and notable histories, tend to be more responsible and better for the community, and giving them additional powers is good since they are more likely to use them responsibly. Griefers tend to have short lives, and thus would become less effective. At the very least, griefers will want to see the additional content and will at least spend some of their time being "productive" citizens.

Option 3: Make killing hard. This works a lot easier in games where "killing things" is not the most common route to advancement, as "killing things" games tend to be based around killing things being easy. However, if lethal weapons like swords are treasured and hard to come by, but beating people with your fists is fairly easy but only knocks the other player out for 30 seconds, it tends to create a situation where most players who would enjoy pvp are first introduced to and then generally graduate towards preferring the non-lethal approach. Even when they gain the ability to kill others, they are much more discrete about using it, since if they themselves are killed in return they will no longer have said ability. Obviously, there a whole lot of ways you can do this (some very creative!)

Option 4: Have "safe areas", which makes the perma-death aspects more of a choice than a constant overhanging threat. Of course, this has to be balanced by giving a REASON to venture into danger...

Option 5: Allow permadeath, but don't allow pvp and give no benefits to killing other players.

[kulik]

Option 6: Doing bad deeds would lower you karma to a point you becoming a outlaw (Preferably only being convicted after leaving witnesses or if somebody would track down your scent.). Like pirates in eve. I like this a lot, cause it makes griefing possible but you have to pay a price. The outlaw tag would wear out not with death of your character but over time, so even if you're get killed you would respawn new character as an outlaw. 

[Neyvn]

I would like to see things like ONE account/character while you play.
HnH as a group is kinda redundant when the one who decided to go Miner/Smith and thus spend most of his time doing the mining, and getting ALL the metal. Then going and creating a Farming/Cooking Alt which can supply him on the other side of the coin when as a Miner he can't do that. Kinda makes it hard for the people who don't mine to get metal that way when you can't trade with the miner cause, He can do it himself...

[Farseer]

I would like to see things like ONE account/character while you play.
HnH as a group is kinda redundant when the one who decided to go Miner/Smith and thus spend most of his time doing the mining, and getting ALL the metal. Then going and creating a Farming/Cooking Alt which can supply him on the other side of the coin when as a Miner he can't do that. Kinda makes it hard for the people who don't mine to get metal that way when you can't trade with the miner cause, He can do it himself...

He didn't have to even create an alt in that case. All he had to do was use the massive skillgains he got off high level smithing to level farming / cooking.

[Cajoes]

"And they shall be as a wolf among men."

This is not a compliment, fyi.

[Neyvn]

I would like to see things like ONE account/character while you play.
HnH as a group is kinda redundant when the one who decided to go Miner/Smith and thus spend most of his time doing the mining, and getting ALL the metal. Then going and creating a Farming/Cooking Alt which can supply him on the other side of the coin when as a Miner he can't do that. Kinda makes it hard for the people who don't mine to get metal that way when you can't trade with the miner cause, He can do it himself...

He didn't have to even create an alt in that case. All he had to do was use the massive skillgains he got off high level smithing to level farming / cooking.

Haven and Hearth has a Belief system, to be an effective Miner you need to have your Belief all the way towards Industry (which gives a better chance of the Ore not becoming Slag (stone)). While he can do this, his Farming ability becomes useless as he will always recover one 'seed' from a harvest action. In response, if you have your belief all the way towards Nature (the opposite of Industry) you will recover 3 'seeds' from a harvest action, but the chances of getting Ore into normal metal is slim to none. Having it in the middle will give a <50% chance of Ore to Metal, and always give only 2 'seeds' per harvest...

[Farseer]

He didn't have to even create an alt in that case. All he had to do was use the massive skillgains he got off high level smithing to level farming / cooking.

Haven and Hearth has a Belief system, to be an effective Miner you need to have your Belief all the way towards Industry (which gives a better chance of the Ore not becoming Slag (stone)). While he can do this, his Farming ability becomes useless as he will always recover one 'seed' from a harvest action. In response, if you have your belief all the way towards Nature (the opposite of Industry) you will recover 3 'seeds' from a harvest action, but the chances of getting Ore into normal metal is slim to none. Having it in the middle will give a <50% chance of Ore to Metal, and always give only 2 'seeds' per harvest...[/quote]

I suppose. It's still pretty easy to do it without having belief sliders set any way, though. The only thing that could have any trouble with that was the silk moths.