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[DJ]

Well... there's no reason you can't be a farmer and a soldier.  Is there?

In your proposed learning by doing system, yes, there very much is. Unless they make it so you have to battle carrots to harvest them.

As for getting chars to demigod status without actually playing, don't forget that it takes a shitton of playing to actually get all those curios and cheese. If you can trick some suckers into doing it for you, then congratulations, you're a good player. One of the major point of the curio system was moving some of the reward away from pure mindless time investment to actual player skill. And what is a greater measure of player skill than the ability to play other people?

All this curio talk is, of course, neither here nor there, because Salem's curios are much different from H&H curios, and this was a Salem thread last I checked. The thing that stayed the same about curios, though, is the reward for shrewd PvP (in a broad sense, ie hustling rather than direct fighting).

Alts are an issue that is *never* going to go away, and an unavoidable part of a game that has both crafting and permadeath PvP. Splitting your investment between a crafter and the fighter characters is really the only logical thing to do. It would happen in any system you can possibly devise, and yes, it did happen in the old LP system too.

[Ivefan]

Well... there's no reason you can't be a farmer and a soldier.  Is there?

In your proposed learning by doing system, yes, there very much is. Unless they make it so you have to battle carrots to harvest them.

In a learn by doing system? Not a problem. While you were learning farming you probably gained strength and/or endurance as a part of the work. When you then later decide that you want to learn combat you would actually have a better base to build on.

[Neyvn]

Anyone have a Beta Key they don't want, wouldn't mind a couple for a few friends...

[DJ]

Well... there's no reason you can't be a farmer and a soldier.  Is there?

In your proposed learning by doing system, yes, there very much is. Unless they make it so you have to battle carrots to harvest them.

In a learn by doing system? Not a problem. While you were learning farming you probably gained strength and/or endurance as a part of the work. When you then later decide that you want to learn combat you would actually have a better base to build on.

Except that's going back to gaining general experience from all actions.

[Siquo]

Anyone have a Beta Key they don't want, wouldn't mind a couple for a few friends...

I''ll PM you mine. I've lost all interest in this game before even playing it.

[Ivefan]

Except that's going back to gaining general experience from all actions.

So fuck XP points? Girlinhat mentioned wurm's system and though i've never played it, It sounds similar to Ultima online. If you use a sword, you gain skill in using swords and nothing else.
So if you would want to be a farmer/soldier then you would simply have to spend time doing both.

[Girlinhat]

Yeah, it's just whatever you want to gain exp in, you start doing that.  Want to raise farming?  Go farm stuff.  Want to raise fighting?  Go fight stuff.  So I'd log in, tend crops, get on my horse and go stab things.  There.  Farmer + soldier, easy huh?

[DJ]

Yeah, which brings us back to my original point of being forced to hunt when I really just wanna focus on farming. It pretty much stamps out any idea of specialization of roles within a group.

[Girlinhat]

...wat?  If you don't want to hunt, then don't hunt.  You'll specialize into farming.  If you're trying to say "I want to be a farmer who can also fight and defend themselves" then you're not specialized.  That's called "militia".

[DJ]

*Every* character in a permadeath game should be able to defend itself, I thought that much was obvious.

Also, give me *one* reason, other than realism, why improving by grinding whatever it is you want to improve is a superior system to free point distribution.

[Ivefan]

It pretty much stamps out any idea of specialization of roles within a group.

*Every* character in a permadeath game should be able to defend itself, I thought that much was obvious.

So... Which one do you want? everyone able to fight and do whatever or specialization?

[Girlinhat]

And you expect to just be able to defend yourself without investing time fighting?  That's what's wrong with the curio system.  You can sit inside all day and get fed curios and become a warlord without touching a single animal or even looking at a piece of armor.  It's easy to become overpowered.  And that's not a good thing.

Yes, you would be forced to hunt.  You're also forced to find food and to build shelter.  There are, in fact, certain things you need to do in the game in order to do the game!

[Criptfeind]

...wat?  If you don't want to hunt, then don't hunt.  You'll specialize into farming.  If you're trying to say "I want to be a farmer who can also fight and defend themselves" then you're not specialized.  That's called "militia".

I think he is talking about how killing bears used to be like, the best way to get exps.

I'd like to point out that I'm pretty sure the curio is even worse for this. Instead of being forced to hunt when I really just wanna focus on farming I am now forced to become a trinket maker. And I get no reward at all for farming.

I think the whole, best way to get better at anything is to kill bears might not be a issue with the system, but rather with the balancing.

Also what about half and half? When you do a action a certain percentage of the exp goes towards that skill, and the rest go into a general pool of exps to use for whatever?

[DJ]

Well  no, not really, Girlinhat. I never touched a pick, and yet I had full steel equipment. It's called the magic of teamwork.

So... Which one do you want? everyone able to fight and do whatever or specialization?

PvP is a whole different beast. It's not really viable to have a small subset of a group specialize in it, because you can bet they're not going to be online when they're needed. And you can't really just PvP all day long, because there simply isn't that much PvP going on (nor should there be, given the permadeath conidition). It happens in short bursts between long stretches of crafting, and as such it must be something that all team member can pitch in for when the proverbial shit hits the fan.

I'd like to point out that I'm pretty sure the curio is even worse for this. Instead of being forced to hunt when I really just wanna focus on farming I am now forced to become a trinket maker. And I get no reward at all for farming.

No, you can quite simply trade your farm products for somebody else's trinkets. This liquidity is what makes the curio system so liberating. You can do *anything* you want, and as long as it's something that other people find useful you can get everything you need to advance. Even if what you want to do is something that the game could never recognize as a useful activity, for example being the town's jester.

[Dariush]

DJ, did you bet someone a thousand bucks that Salem would succeed or something? Your arguments make absolutely no sense. You keep pushing your 'any skill system that MAKES FUCKING SENSE is bad because it allows bots' agenda while disregarding all opposition. You neatly skimmed over one of the best arguments expressed here:

When you can log in for 2 minutes a day and get a demigod fighter character, something might be wrong.

Because that is EXACTLY what happened in H&H and what is going to happen in Salem, because they didn't change anything.