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Author Topic: "You Can't Torrent Your Game Copy, That's Illegal"  (Read 22334 times)

Majestic7

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Re: "You Can't Torrent Your Game Copy, That's Illegal"
« Reply #90 on: January 25, 2011, 10:15:28 am »

Lots of people are claiming that illegal downloading of software is not depriving the company of anything. That's just plain false.

Prove it. Prove that piracy is harmful.

The thing is, there isn't any reliable scientific evidence that piracy actually harms producers. Piracy as in individuals downloading stuff; companies using pirated software to conduct their business is one thing and selling counterfeits another thing too. Sure, common sense might say piracy is harmful, but common sense is not reliable. We can only trust science to provide the facts and facts require evidence. The claims for losses by RIAA and MPAA are screwed studies at best. They claim falling sales = proof of piracy being harmful and then calculate every download as a lost sale. That is bullshit and even the US government admits it:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/04/us-government-finally-admits-most-piracy-estimates-are-bogus.ars

Torrentfreak has a good piece about declining music sales:
http://torrentfreak.com/more-music-sold-than-ever-before-despite-piracy-110110/

I could go on more about music and movies, but we were talking about computer games. There is no proof of any harm done either. For example, I remember Crytek crying that Crysis didn't sell because of piracy, for example... but... really? It got very mediocre reviews and it required top notch rig to work with all the eye candy. The game was just poorly designed and I guess not very good. Piracy is just a handy wolf to cry, because nobody is going to jump up to defend it. It is like blaming drugs for crime among poor people instead of, say, poverty.

There is much anecdotal evidene about piracy doing good to niche producers. For example, this:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.comicsalliance.com/media/2010/10/undergroundsales.jpg

That is graph for sales of a comic "Underground". It was copied and distributed on 4chan by someone and lo! The sales exploded. Of course there is more to the story; the author appeared on 4chan to discuss the issue with anons and came across as a good guy. If he had come guns blazing and screaming BLOODY THIEVES, things would likely be different. There is a good teaching there, carrot works better than the stick. You can't beat the fucking internet and downloading stuff is essential part of the internet, just like porn. You don't need to like it, but it is here to stay and takes a big part of the bandwith.

Scientific research on piracy says that either it has no effect, it actually makes people buy more of the stuff they download or it has overall positive effect on the economy, regardless of detail-level effect on individual products:
http://tinyurl.com/d4racv
http://torrentfreak.com/pirates-are-the-music-industrys-most-valuable-customers-100122/
(I was looking for the old Napster study showing the people who downloaded most bought the most, but I guess that Torrentfreak will do.)

tl;dr : There is no proof private downloading is harmful. It might sometimes be beneficial. Claims about piracy being harmful are mostly total bullshit. Either way, piracy is here to stay and instead of fighting the windmills, producers should try to take advantage of them. 
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Sergius

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Re: "You Can't Torrent Your Game Copy, That's Illegal"
« Reply #91 on: January 25, 2011, 10:24:04 am »

But, but, people always say that it's "theft, period!" and that "it harms them, plain and simple!" and "it's a fact!". I mean, they said "period"! Punctuation always makes the most compelling arguments! Also you can't deny facts, because they're facts! It says so right there!
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ed boy

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Re: "You Can't Torrent Your Game Copy, That's Illegal"
« Reply #92 on: January 25, 2011, 11:24:52 am »

Lots of people are claiming that illegal downloading of software is not depriving the company of anything. That's just plain false.
Prove it. Prove that piracy is harmful.
I have previously downloaded things which, had I not been able to pirate, I would have paid for. My sample size may be small (consisting only of me), but I am confident that there are plently of other like me.

As for proving such a statement, that is impossible. What you more likely meant was that I should show that, with experimental error, data can be found that backs up such a claim.

Quite frankly, that's impossible. All of the data that I have seen concerning this argument is not useful at all - they can show some correlation (be it strong or weak, positive or negative) between various factors related to piracy and sales. These are no good - not a trace of proper scientific practice among them. There are dozens of outside variables, poorly controlled controlled variables, and I'll be damned if there's a control group.
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Sergius

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Re: "You Can't Torrent Your Game Copy, That's Illegal"
« Reply #93 on: January 25, 2011, 11:33:11 am »

Then I guess it ain't just plain false, right?
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Farseer

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Re: "You Can't Torrent Your Game Copy, That's Illegal"
« Reply #94 on: January 25, 2011, 11:36:45 am »

As for proving such a statement, that is impossible. What you more likely meant was that I should show that, with experimental error, data can be found that backs up such a claim.

Quite frankly, that's impossible. All of the data that I have seen concerning this argument is not useful at all - they can show some correlation (be it strong or weak, positive or negative) between various factors related to piracy and sales. These are no good - not a trace of proper scientific practice among them. There are dozens of outside variables, poorly controlled controlled variables, and I'll be damned if there's a control group.

You do realise that most graphs point to piracy leading to an increase in purchasing? At least when you look on a small level at a single product, right?

Astral

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Re: "You Can't Torrent Your Game Copy, That's Illegal"
« Reply #95 on: January 25, 2011, 11:43:05 am »

On the point of music sales decreasing: It simply means that bands will have to tour and do concerts more, make themselves heard, rather than sitting in a recording studio getting fat checks for little work. They may be able to afford one less (out of their twelve they have already) car, but I don't find that too bad.

The record company's current business relies on people being big hits or busting, and throwing lawyers at anyone who tries to cross them, but in doing so halts progress in alternative methods of making money. After all, why bother coming up with new ideas when you can simply litigate your old profit-making methods into long standing arrangements?
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ed boy

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Re: "You Can't Torrent Your Game Copy, That's Illegal"
« Reply #96 on: January 25, 2011, 12:00:58 pm »

Then I guess it ain't just plain false, right?

It is, as there exists in my sample (me) instances where it is false. There are multiple instances in that sample when piracy does indeed deprive the producers of software and media of money.

As for proving such a statement, that is impossible. What you more likely meant was that I should show that, with experimental error, data can be found that backs up such a claim.

Quite frankly, that's impossible. All of the data that I have seen concerning this argument is not useful at all - they can show some correlation (be it strong or weak, positive or negative) between various factors related to piracy and sales. These are no good - not a trace of proper scientific practice among them. There are dozens of outside variables, poorly controlled controlled variables, and I'll be damned if there's a control group.

You do realise that most graphs point to piracy leading to an increase in purchasing? At least when you look on a small level at a single product, right?
They suggest a correlation, not causation.
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Soulwynd

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Re: "You Can't Torrent Your Game Copy, That's Illegal"
« Reply #97 on: January 25, 2011, 12:09:17 pm »

Hello to the wonderful world of fallacies.

Today we're presenting you with fallacy number 27:

The exception doesn't make the rule.

And the wonderful fallacy number 12:

What a crazy generalization based on one subject, batman.


Furthermore, I hereby call you an ass. If you don't agree with us and consider piracy bad, just say so. You don't have to shove fallacy up our butts to try to prove your point. You should know the b12 crew better by now. Shame on you, shame on you!

« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 12:12:55 pm by Soulwynd »
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ed boy

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Re: "You Can't Torrent Your Game Copy, That's Illegal"
« Reply #98 on: January 25, 2011, 12:16:40 pm »

Hello to the wonderful world of fallacies.

Today we're presenting you with fallacy number 27:

The exception doesn't make the rule.

And the wonderful fallacy number 12:

What a crazy generalization based on one subject, batman.


Furthermore, I hereby call you an ass. If you don't agree with us and consider piracy bad, just say so. You don't have to shove fallacy up our butts to try to prove your point. You should know the b12 crew better by now. Shame on you, shame on you!
I'm not saying that every instance of piracy deprives companies of money, I am saying that some do.

I admit that my sample is not the largest or most representative of samples.
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Zangi

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Re: "You Can't Torrent Your Game Copy, That's Illegal"
« Reply #99 on: January 25, 2011, 12:21:53 pm »

Well, in my sample sized world of me myself and I...  I buy what I dang well please and don't buy trash.
/argument
/fact
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Sergius

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Re: "You Can't Torrent Your Game Copy, That's Illegal"
« Reply #100 on: January 25, 2011, 12:33:21 pm »

Then I guess it ain't just plain false, right?

It is, as there exists in my sample (me) instances where it is false. There are multiple instances in that sample when piracy does indeed deprive the producers of software and media of money.

If for every example that cost them money (and I mean conclusively, "would have purchased it had I not pirated it" style) there is another example that helped them made money, then in fact it is not false that PIRACY (not "a single instance of piracy", otherwise if I find a single instance where it made them more money, I could equally claim that every single act of piracy makes them more money) didn't harm the company. Instead, PIRACY (as a whole, on average, or whatchamacallit) would have helped the company.

Hello to the wonderful world of fallacies.

Today we're presenting you with fallacy number 27:

The exception doesn't make the rule.

And the wonderful fallacy number 12:

What a crazy generalization based on one subject, batman.

Furthermore, I hereby call you an ass. If you don't agree with us and consider piracy bad, just say so. You don't have to shove fallacy up our butts to try to prove your point. You should know the b12 crew better by now. Shame on you, shame on you!
I'm not saying that every instance of piracy deprives companies of money, I am saying that some do.

I admit that my sample is not the largest or most representative of samples.

Well, a second sample would show that 100% of instances of piracy doubles their money. All I need to do is show one guy that pirated something, and then he bought two or more of the same item (one as a gift, maybe). With a sample size of one, then piracy is good for everyone! Plain and simple!

Now, let's try with a bigger sample:

Let's say 100 people pirate a program. Of these 100 people, 80 wouldn't have bought it at all (some of them may have *wanted* to, but they didn't for X reason, like, they already spent their allowance on program Y instead. others just don't care, but are curious about what it is). 20 decided that, since it's free (TM) they really needed it, would have shelled out hard cash for it, but didn't and used a pirated copy instead.

That's, at most, generously, 20 "lost sales" from this transaction. But it's not "plain" at all. What if, from the 80 people who pirated it, some decide they're going to enroll in a course that you are dictating that's worth more money? What if some of these show it to their friends, resulting in 21 extra sales? What if you sell mugs for fans of the program, and 75 people buy overpriced mugs from you because they pirated the program (including the ones that would have paid, but didn't)?

You maybe can't show causation, only correlation of piracy vs sales. But if the correlation shows a net gain, how can you say that piracy COSTS sales? I mean, sure, it doesn't *prove* that each pirate bought more, or even that piracy was the reason of the extra sales/income, but going from that to the Exact Opposite, now that needs some very convoluted reasoning...

And then, there are the studies that have been shown. They're scientific, to some extent. They don't CLAIM that piracy is the CAUSE of the increase, but it shows the increase, for those foaming at the mount shouting "our money is decreasing because of piracy!", well it isn't, because of piracy or rainbows or anything else, because it's not decreasing at all, it's increasing!
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 12:43:14 pm by Sergius »
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freeformschooler

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Re: "You Can't Torrent Your Game Copy, That's Illegal"
« Reply #101 on: January 25, 2011, 12:45:54 pm »

Well, in my sample sized world of me myself and I...  I buy what I dang well please and don't buy trash.
/argument
/fact

What this guy said. If people will produce quality products, I will buy them.
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Pnx

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Re: "You Can't Torrent Your Game Copy, That's Illegal"
« Reply #102 on: January 25, 2011, 12:56:49 pm »

Is it possible that this discussion could get moved to General Discussion? This isn't really the place for this...
I don't want to offend but I find these debates very trite, and it's kind of getting in the way of me getting my game on...
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Sergius

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Re: "You Can't Torrent Your Game Copy, That's Illegal"
« Reply #103 on: January 25, 2011, 12:59:44 pm »

Is it possible that this discussion could get moved to General Discussion? This isn't really the place for this...
I don't want to offend but I find these debates very trite, and it's kind of getting in the way of me getting my game on...

It's about games, or gaming industries. And the discussion belongs "here", as in, in this thread, because it's about it.

You already posted in it, so you're going to get updates no matter what... so I don't know what is accomplished by moving it to General Discussion, other than annoy people in General Discussion instead of people in Other Games?
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Paul

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Re: "You Can't Torrent Your Game Copy, That's Illegal"
« Reply #104 on: January 25, 2011, 01:13:37 pm »

I've downloaded games in the past, and every single one of them that I enjoyed I bought afterwards. I usually wind up downloading a game when I can't find a demo (or if the demo is woefully inadequate) and I use it as a demo. After a day or two of playing I either buy it and continue playing, or delete it because it was crap. Theres just too much crap being released for me to blindly buy a game anymore.

Distant Worlds, for instance. It looked cool, but I have so many other games similar to it that I was debating if I should buy it. I searched for a demo, couldn't find one. So I downloaded it, played it for 3 hours, and bought it. It's a fun game, and I definitely would not have bought it if I hadn't tried it first. I even bought the expansion pack.

So thats +2 sales from piracy.


As far as the original topic, I don't see anything wrong with it since you already own the game, but like others have said you shouldn't be posting about it on their forums.
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