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Author Topic: Guide to setting up your military - the alternative way  (Read 7520 times)

martinuzz

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Guide to setting up your military - the alternative way
« on: January 15, 2011, 09:13:57 pm »

Since I notice a recurring subject of the DF Gameplay Questions forum to be the about problems players experience with the   inefficiency and ineffectiveness of training up a military with the use of schedules, and alerts, I   will try to describe how to set up a military, that trains at an   acceptable rate, and bypasses the need to set any schedules / alerts for   them. It also removes the need to have a separate military. Any civilian you want can double as a military, and only be on active duty when you want it to be, and back to civilian duty without delays.
  Perhaps, if people find it useful, it could be stickied, as I have posted this before in a few threads, yet the subject keeps popping up.

First of all, I need to point out that this alternative does involve the use of danger rooms.
(http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Danger_room)
If for some reason, you dislike the use of danger rooms, I guess this method is not meant for you.
Having said that, let's kick off with a basic rule, that makes this whole thing possible:

Never, ever, designate a barracks. It is okay to build armor stands, beds, weapon racks and whatsmore, wherever you please, but do not designate any of them as a barracks. Why? Because it makes dwarves that are assinged to squads go there when they please, and do things we don't want them to do.

Okay. So you have a fortress, without a barracks. What now?
Easy. Just make a squad. (For the purpose of this guide, I will assume that you are familiar with forming squads, and equipping them with armor and weapons.)
In fact, make as many squads as you like, with as little, or as many dwarves per squad as you please. This comes down to personal taste, really.
Personally, I tend to have squads of five dwarves. And my marksdwarves go in squads of one dwarf each.

To keep things easy, I would suggest that you do not assign any miners, woodcutters or hunters to any squad. Dwarves that have one or more of those civilian labors activated, will have trouble equipping themselves properly with armor and weapons, when switched to active duty. You don't want that. In combat, a dwarf without armor is a dead dwarf, usually.

Notice, that even though you have formed your dwarves into squads, they are still civilians, merrily doing their civilian jobs.
You might also notice, that once you assign armor and/or weapons to your dwarves, they will equip themselves, when they have no job with higher priority to do (when the proper items are available).
One thing to note: currently (v0.18), carrying military food supplies is bugged. So, for every squad you create, make sure to go to the supplies page, and set it to carry "no food". Drink aren't bugged though, so it's fine to set that option to 'any drink'. Make sure you have enough waterskins / flasks. update: fixed in DF 2012


Okay, so now you have a fortress, without a barracks, but with some armored-up, weapon wielding civilians. That's pretty nifty, but it won't do them much good without the skills to match now, will it?
For this, we need a danger room, and if possible, goblin prisoners.

Make sure the dwarves you wish to train have full armor protection, but no shields. Even though the spears in the danger room are made of wood, they can still hurt your dwarves if they don't have armor.

Now, press (s)quads, select the squads you wish to train, and give them a (m)ove order to your danger room. Instantly, the dwarves in the squad will change from civilians into military dwarves, and move to the danger room, unless they're sleeping. In that case, they will change to military as soon as they wake up. Put the danger room's lever on repeat, and watch your squad become proficient armor users/fighters/dodgers/weapon users in no time. At about this proficiency level of one or more of those skills, equip your dwarves with shields as well, and send them back to the danger room. If you want, you can have legendary armor users/fighters/shield users before you know it, if you have them do the danger room for a few seasons.
Sure enough, a *whole* lot faster than having them do training sessions and spar in barracks :P

Weapon skills might fall behind a bit, especially once the shield user skill increases. They need to parry to gain weapon skill in the danger room, and parrying is somewhat rare. Blocking seems to take preference over dodging and parrying, which is strenghtened by having shield skill higher than weapon and dodge skills. That's why you want to equip those shields at a later stage.

Here's also where those goblin prisoners come in handy. Strip them of their weapons, but not their armor, and send a squad to fight them, preferably with wooden, and if not available, silver versions of their weapons of choice. Note that you can use wooden crossbows to train hammer skill :D

So, now you have a fortress, without a barracks, but with a few squads of dwarves getting a good workout down in the danger room. But you really need more haulers, to get that accursed goblin loot on the backs of those trader's mules, and off the map!
If, at any time, you need your dwarves to go back to civilian duty, you only need to press (s)quads, select the squad you wish to revert, and press cancel (o)rder. Instantly, your dwarf will revert to civilian jobs (while keeping weapon and armor).
Note that, once a dwarf reaches high enough weapon skill, activating him as a military dwarf will clear all his civilian jobs. This is not permanent though, you can turn them back on once you have reverted him to civilian duty. I've only seen this so far with dwarves with legendary crossbow/marksdwarf and axedwarf skills. It seems legendary shield user / armor user / dodger / fighter do not cause this, only the weapon skills (and perhaps, wrestling/kicking/biting) do.
As a bonus, any marksdwarves that have reached sufficient marksmanship skill, will no longer run away from enemies, but shoot them even while in civilian mode.

Things to watch out for:
- (your dwarves' happiness. With low combat skills, your dwarves will get unhappy thoughts for being activated into military duty. They will no longer suffer from that thought once their combat skills pass 'Great' though. After that, just watch out for unhappy thoughts caused by being   on duty for too long.)
This   is slightly mixed up - being activated and becoming a Recruit will   cause unhappiness from "the draft", and staying on duty for extended   periods of time will cause unhappiness from "patrol duty". The former   will go away once the dwarf has Novice skill in any weapon (and thus   becomes a Swordsdwarf/Macedwarf/Wrestler/etc. instead of a Recruit),   while the latter goes away upon becoming an Elite soldier (which happens   upon reaching Great skill and also turns off all labors). However, when   Elite soldiers are switched to civilian mode and then back to military   mode, they stop being Elite and will start getting   patrol duty thoughts until they gain enough experience in any skill to   trigger a level-up, at which point they become Elite again. Thus, once   an entire squad becomes Elite, it should be assigned to barracks and put   on a 10/10 year-round training order so that it stays that way (since   it won't be particularly useful for civilian duty anymore due to labors   being turned off all the time).
- Military dwarves having children. Danger rooms are not healthy to children. If your military dwarves do have children, and you still want to send them to the danger room, just make sure that all dwarves with 'recover wounded' job active are wearing armor ;)
- Pets. Don't assign pets to military dwarves. Pets don't like danger rooms. Dwarves  tend not to like losing pets.

So, in summary:
- No barracks
- Need only two commands to handle everything you want your military to do, be it activation, training, stationing or combat: (s)>>(m), and (s)>>(o)

the advantages:
- training your dwarves up much faster than using barracks / schedules
- direct control. Your dwarves don't waste time doing 'individual combat drills' and whatsmore when you want them to do their civ jobs
- simplicity. Forget the schedules screen. No need for many alerts, unless you want to set many patrol routes for some reason.


Marksdwarves are somewhat of a different matter. Personally, I train marksdwarves by having them hunt a year or two, using bone bolts, before putting them into squads, after which they can join in the danger room and arena fights. But I think archery ranges work as well, as long as there are no barracks, and enough bolts. Once my archers are put into a squad, and geared up in armor, I never give them back the hunting job, for it will mess up their armor. Most of my marksdwarves are fishermen and herbalists when they're on civilian duty, which keeps them close enough to the surface to be able to incapacitate the occasional kobold / goblin thief before it gets away.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 04:06:54 pm by martinuzz »
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Sutremaine

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Re: Guide to setting up your military - the alternative way
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2011, 10:54:11 pm »

Swordsdwarves get their labours turned off after Elite level as well. I expect it's all melee weapon skills...

Nice guide.
Civilians will still train their armour skills as long as they're wearing armour, yes? I was planning on setting up a danger room* and turning it into a meeting area. Not quick, but automatic and has idlers doing something.

*Over some water; it's specifically for swimming but a bit of military training is fine too.
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yamamushi

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Re: Guide to setting up your military - the alternative way
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2011, 02:36:07 am »

Thanks for this guide! Also kudos for having a smoking avatar too :D
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slothen

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Re: Guide to setting up your military - the alternative way
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2011, 04:39:22 am »

marksdwarves without a barracks will spend a lot of time doing the Soldier (cannot follow orders) job.
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shlorf

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Re: Guide to setting up your military - the alternative way
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2011, 06:27:48 am »

I dunno why people keep claiming that carrying food is bugged. It's working fine for me in 9/10 cases. And when it's not it's usually my fault for putting woodcutters/miners/hunters in the military or not having enough backpacks for every soldier.
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martinuzz

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Re: Guide to setting up your military - the alternative way
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2011, 09:13:36 am »

Hmm well, in my latest fortress, I did once more try to give them food, but this only led them to leave about pieces of claimed  prepared food in places they own, never picking them up again. Thus causing clouds of miasma coming from rotten food that cannot be hauled away, because it is owned. They did have plenty of backpacks.
And no, they were no woodcutters, miners or hunters, for those have not seen military service at all this fortress.

Also, yes, civilians wearing armor and shields will train if they pass through a danger room. Just be very careful with pets if you want to turn your meeting hall into one.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 09:16:00 am by martinuzz »
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martinuzz

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Re: Guide to setting up your military - the alternative way
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2011, 09:22:34 am »

marksdwarves without a barracks will spend a lot of time doing the Soldier (cannot follow orders) job.

In a previous fortress, I did not assign the marksdwarves to a barracks, but only to the archery range. I had 2 squads, of 1 marksdwarf, each with their own archery range (1 target only) I don't recall experiencing any 'cannot follow orders' at all. The marksdwarves trained up fine.
I also recall another fortress, were I had larger squads of marksdwarves, also only assigned to the archery range. I had more issues with cannot follow orders there, even though there were enough targets.

So I'm not sure if it's the lack of barracks that would cause the 'cannot follow orders' behaviour. It could also have to do with the squad size.

I guess that's another advantage of the alternative method: You can be sure your marksdwarves are never on 'cannot follow orders' job, if there's no schedules.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 09:35:47 am by martinuzz »
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tivec

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Re: Guide to setting up your military - the alternative way
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2011, 09:30:45 am »

Great work with this guide!

I'm totally going to play around with this with my fort, military's always been something I've had trouble getting to work properly.
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xtc

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Re: Guide to setting up your military - the alternative way
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2011, 08:01:45 am »

Thanks for your replies. The guide in particular is great and I'll be trying that tonight when I get back home.
I can see I've done almost everything wrong - I assigned a bunch of wardogs to my squad so it wouldn't be shredded by a single kobold, as used to happen. They all perised when my naked squads were dancing in the danger room, setting off a tatrum spiral which decimated the military ranks and caused them to tear apart the danger room.

After assigning armour, the danger room squad (what was left of it) rapidly achieved legendary status in Fighter and Armour user, still little progress in Dodger.

I used a pressure pad in the main hallway to drive the danger room, but this left me with no easy way to turn it off.
I am now building a repeater to drive it, and I'll add an Arena for fighting captured goblins. Would a lever with Pull/R make more sense? I use these for driving the fortress defenses during sieges, but for long stretches of duty I'm guessing a machine makes more sense.
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martinuzz

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Re: Guide to setting up your military - the alternative way
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2011, 09:28:27 am »

still little progress in Dodger.

Ah well, who needs dodging, anyways. Blocking, and wearing enough armor is more important.

I used a pressure pad in the main hallway to drive the danger room, but this left me with no easy way to turn it off.
I am now building a repeater to drive it, and I'll add an Arena for fighting captured goblins. Would a lever with Pull/R make more sense? I use these for driving the fortress defenses during sieges, but for long stretches of duty I'm guessing a machine makes more sense.

If you have some idle dwarves to spare, a lever set to repeat works quite well. If you can't spare the dwarfpower, a repeater would be the way to go, yea.
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Quietust

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Re: Guide to setting up your military - the alternative way
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2011, 03:10:12 pm »

- your dwarves' happiness. With low combat skills, your dwarves will get unhappy thoughts for being activated into military duty. They will no longer suffer from that thought once their combat skills pass 'Great' though. After that, just watch out for unhappy thoughts caused by being on duty for too long.

This is slightly mixed up - being activated and becoming a Recruit will cause unhappiness from "the draft", and staying on duty for extended periods of time will cause unhappiness from "patrol duty". The former will go away once the dwarf has Novice skill in any weapon (and thus becomes a Swordsdwarf/Macedwarf/Wrestler/etc. instead of a Recruit), while the latter goes away upon becoming an Elite soldier (which happens upon reaching Great skill and also turns off all labors). However, when Elite soldiers are switched to civilian mode and then back to military mode, they stop being Elite and will start getting patrol duty thoughts until they gain enough experience in any skill to trigger a level-up, at which point they become Elite again. Thus, once an entire squad becomes Elite, it should be assigned to barracks and put on a 10/10 year-round training order so that it stays that way (since it won't be particularly useful for civilian duty anymore due to labors being turned off all the time).
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martinuzz

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Re: Guide to setting up your military - the alternative way
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2011, 03:17:07 pm »

Thanks, I didn't know that, about losing elite status on activation.
I've taken the liberty of qouting that and inserting it in the OP

However, designating a barracks for them kinda beats the purpose with this method.
My elite dwarves are regularily switched on and off duty, and I haven't seen them unhappy yet.
A legendary dining room and tasty food and booze should be enough to counteract the bad thoughts for them.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 03:23:18 pm by martinuzz »
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GotIt_00

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Re: Guide to setting up your military - the alternative way
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2011, 12:08:07 pm »

I like the ideas in the guide, but I've run into a problem without an assigned barracks. When I give the move order to the danger room, I have dwarfs who stand just outside of the room. I have a 3x3 danger room, so maybe they're technically close enough to where I gave the move designation, even though they're on the other side of the wall?

About pet deaths--these seem unavoidable. Even with two doors set to "no pets," they always manage to sneak in and get skewered. On a positive note, once the soldiers have weapons they train to legendary super fast because of all the parrying they have to do.
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martinuzz

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Re: Guide to setting up your military - the alternative way
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2011, 12:26:15 pm »

I like the ideas in the guide, but I've run into a problem without an assigned barracks. When I give the move order to the danger room, I have dwarfs who stand just outside of the room. I have a 3x3 danger room, so maybe they're technically close enough to where I gave the move designation, even though they're on the other side of the wall?

Well, that's not exactly related to having no barracks, but rather to the way movement/stationing orders work at the moment.
In 40d, you could order a dwarf to an exact spot. Currently, you cannot.
However, you can 'try a few times' to get them all in the right spot, by moving them away, and back in.
3x3 sounds a bit small though. My danger rooms are 5x5, and usually take 2-3 tries to get all dwarves from a squad to stand inside it's borders.

About pet deaths--these seem unavoidable. Even with two doors set to "no pets," they always manage to sneak in and get skewered. On a positive note, once the soldiers have weapons they train to legendary super fast because of all the parrying they have to do.

Uh-huh. That's why I don't assign pets to them, and make sure the danger room is not in a busy passageway, so pets won't randomly path through it.
There's a trick to keep pets out though, but it requires a lot of micromanagement.
Pets will stick to a door like honey, waiting for an opportunity to slip through. However, if you use 2 doors, some ways apart, you can force them to repath to the other door, by locking the one they stand at (and unlocking the other one). With the right timing, you can make them walk to the other door, just as a dwarf that needs to get through the door they were sticking to arrives. The animals will start walking to the other door, and you can unlock the first door again to allow the approaching dwarf to pass.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 12:27:47 pm by martinuzz »
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GotIt_00

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Re: Guide to setting up your military - the alternative way
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2011, 05:45:26 pm »

I like the ideas in the guide, but I've run into a problem without an assigned barracks. When I give the move order to the danger room, I have dwarfs who stand just outside of the room. I have a 3x3 danger room, so maybe they're technically close enough to where I gave the move designation, even though they're on the other side of the wall?

I need to expand the danger room. So...many...wooden spears...
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