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Author Topic: Politics  (Read 9222 times)

Sir Pseudonymous

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Re: Politics
« Reply #135 on: January 22, 2011, 08:13:52 am »

The thing about communism is it's only ever come about through a violent revolution. The only people that can pull that off are thugs, who make bad leaders of state as a rule. Ironically, the USSR was almost an exception to that, being a revolution led by intellectuals. Then the bolsheviks swept in and hijacked the new state, and then Stalin, a thug that would have better suited a mafia than a state, hijacked that state, and proceeded to make a royal mess of things with his purges of anyone who had a clue what they were doing. They did manage to turn a rural agricultural backwater into a (then) modern industrial state, despite their constant bungling of things, and managed to win their side of WWII through sheer weight of numbers and the incompetence of the Nazi leaders. One can only wonder what might have been had Lenin died before he could raise the Bolsheviks against the moderates who overthrew the Czars...


Of course, that's not to say that (actual) Communism isn't inherently flawed at its heart, holding as an ideal a peasant revolution to instill a "Noble Proletarian" dictatorship, with the aim of facilitating the transition to Anarchism, at which point the transitional government would be expected to stand down. But, it was a fresh ideal at the time, and the hellish conditions the working class lived and worked in (in industrial nations, it had jack shit to do with farming peasants, ironically the only ones to ever take up its banner en masse).

Now these days, of course, "Communism" has become conflated with a centrally organized economy, which could work, provided it had proper popular backing, wasn't sabotaged by Ayn Rand worshiping assholes touting a perverted version of Adam Smith's (already flawed) principles (I cannot recall the source for this, but I quite distinctly reading that Adam Smith also supported humanitarian actions by governments (such as healthcare, worker safety, etc), only believing that the economy as whole should be left as untouched as possible while preventing catastrophic collapse (as has been repeatedly shown to occur in particularly free markets)), and was carefully orchestrated by experts armed with modern technology to streamline the necessary bureaucracy. But those three oh so fucking simple requirements can't currently be met, so it's not a feasible solution.

Limited capitalism, despite its flaws and excesses, manages to work decently, being what is effectively a massive evolutionary algorithm playing out in a chaotic, semi-intelligent environment. It's no worse an organization solution than humanity's had, and a far sight better than some. Those actions which lead to success in it (which generally are beneficial to the society as a whole (a non-profit driven organization is required to prevent the actions which are not beneficial, but still lead to success for those performing them)) will continue to be performed, and the massively distributed nature of it means that there are fewer oversights (which might be missed by an insufficiently capable organizer in a centralized economy), and while it ruins those whose actions don't happen to hit upon what works (purely by chance, mind you: it is a chaotic, largely incomprehensible system despite all the research put into its functions; the best you ever get are mildly favorable probabilities of success), most manage to keep on going relatively untouched.


It must be said that to worship any theoretical style of governing a state is to embrace folly and ruin. The proper actions are determined less by grand ideals than they are by practicality. Yes, a properly run centralized economy could far outstrip the chaotic results of capitalism: the USSR, despite being a horribly run centralized economy still managed to last the greater part of a century, with all the world aligned against it, and managed to accomplish some absolutely staggering feats of progress. But we're not going to get a properly run centralized economy, and so it must be disregarded as a possibility. One must work with the conditions one has, and account for ideologues and criminals who will muddle everything up in the name of their damned philosophies, or just to see it all burn in the case of people like News Corp's Murdock.


And that's why I can only define myself as a pragmatist. Ideologies be damned, do what will work with the conditions you have. I suppose that technically is an ideology in and of itself, but my meaning should be clear as day regardless.
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Shade-o

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Re: Politics
« Reply #136 on: January 22, 2011, 08:18:39 am »

I'm generally impressed by how well Cuba is doing. Aside from being a police state, it's doing pretty good for a country that the US has tried to remove.
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Zrk2

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Re: Politics
« Reply #137 on: January 22, 2011, 12:06:14 pm »

Now these days, of course, "Communism" has become conflated with a centrally organized economy, which could work, provided it had proper popular backing, wasn't sabotaged by Ayn Rand worshiping assholes touting a perverted version of Adam Smith's (already flawed) principles (I cannot recall the source for this, but I quite distinctly reading that Adam Smith also supported humanitarian actions by governments (such as healthcare, worker safety, etc), only believing that the economy as whole should be left as untouched as possible while preventing catastrophic collapse (as has been repeatedly shown to occur in particularly free markets)), and was carefully orchestrated by experts armed with modern technology to streamline the necessary bureaucracy. But those three oh so fucking simple requirements can't currently be met, so it's not a feasible solution.

Speak of the devil...

Anyway, I admit that a true laissiez-faire economy would likely faill due to the fact that humans are amoral, and not all would choose to live by the moral means necessary for it to succeed. So I think the government needs to be bigger then that laid out by Ayn Rand, but only because anything less would fail in real life.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Politics
« Reply #138 on: January 22, 2011, 12:10:56 pm »

Doesn't morality not come into Ayn Rand's ideas at all?  I mean, it's meant to be based on purely selfish actors.
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Zrk2

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Re: Politics
« Reply #139 on: January 22, 2011, 02:08:53 pm »

But she sees selfishness as being moral. It is sad to see that it has reached a point where people can't even conceive of selfishness as being moral.

Selfishness was the endpoint of her philosophy, not the beginning.

Objectivism (the name of her philosophy) states that a persons rights are the most important thing in the world, and they must be protected at all costs. To this end, she hypothesized that the only moral system would be one which protected everyone's rights, Capitalism. Why capitalism? Well, because laissiez-faire capitalism means everyone would be free to do as they wish, so they do not violate the rights of others, exactly as she felt. So she endorsed lassiez-faire capitalism because it was the only system which was compatible with her ideals.

Also, she escaped from Russia early in life, so she probably wanted to fight against them in any way possible, and a laissiez-faire system is as far from the USSR as possible.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Politics
« Reply #140 on: January 22, 2011, 02:16:32 pm »

So uh... Ayn Rand's philosophy fails because people aren't selfish enough?
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Sowelu

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Re: Politics
« Reply #141 on: January 22, 2011, 03:34:30 pm »

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Eugenitor

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Re: Politics
« Reply #142 on: January 22, 2011, 03:41:08 pm »

My "too good to be true" sense is tingling.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Politics
« Reply #143 on: January 22, 2011, 04:26:56 pm »

So uh... about twice as efficient as the stuff that already exists.  Sounds useful, but not exactly gamebreaking...
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Nikov

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Re: Politics
« Reply #144 on: January 22, 2011, 04:39:17 pm »

So uh... about twice as efficient as the stuff that already exists.  Sounds useful, but not exactly gamebreaking...

"at an energy-cost equivalent of $30 (U.S.) a barrel of crude oil"

"Dated Brent Spot $96.95 bbl"

Gamebreaking now?
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I should probably have my head checked, because I find myself in complete agreement with Nikov.

Oakenshield

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Re: Politics
« Reply #145 on: January 22, 2011, 04:46:47 pm »

I believe that capitalism is ultimately a flawed system. I also believe that communism is based on wrongly understood ideas and therefore will not (ever) work.

The reason I believe Capitalism is ultimately a flawed system is because it ultimately produces a clique of oligarchs who can collapse the economy any time they want to (and frequently do), to enrich themselves.

If you took the money from just one of these people and printed it out, it would fill an Olympic sized swimming pool at least five times, perhaps many more.

I have a very strong hatred of these people because they ceaselessly enrich themselves irrespective of national policies, politics, and people and are in general a bunch of multi-national elites that don't care about anything and would slap a judge in the face and walk out of the room blatantly if they felt they could get away with it in a court of law.

Essentially what happens is that Capitalism produces oligarchs who get into a 'I'm rich enough to buy the world any time I want to, therefore I'm going to do anything I want to do, (including kill and hurt people), any time I want to, f*ck you if you get pissed off' mentality. And this mentality is often bolstered by the 'if you're to stupid to protect your own money I'm going to leave you bankrupt with absolutely nothing at all, because I /want/ to. I don't even need the money, I just want to ruin someone for my own pleasure'.

I believe communism fails because it produces government elites who do anything they want any time they want due to their party connections, producing much the same result.
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Omegastick

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Re: Politics
« Reply #146 on: January 22, 2011, 04:49:41 pm »

I believe communism fails because it produces government elites who do anything they want any time they want due to their party connections, producing much the same result.

You're thinking of Fascism, my friend. It just happens that most (so called) Communist countries are also Fascist.
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Oakenshield

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Re: Politics
« Reply #147 on: January 22, 2011, 05:12:44 pm »

Let me just say this.

I blame many of the problems the current world civilization faces on the wealthy elites who would do anything and everything they could do to protect their own interests, including sabotage and destroy competing interests even when those competing interests are better suited for the more general population. Its my opinion that their a bunch of greedy traitors who don't care about ANYthing, at all.

I would, if I had a time machine, take these people back to a less ambiguous time and roast them alive on a stake. AFTER I put a red hot poker in their wounds repeatedly, AFTER I gouged their eyes out with a razor sharp white hot dagger, AFTER I whipped them till their skin fell off in chunks, AFTER I threw them in a barrel full of enflamed coals and spun it around five times.

No, I'm not sorry about my opinion.

Yes, I am sorry for you if you are offended by it.

My opinion is the same for them regardless of whether they are communist or capitalist.
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ed boy

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Re: Politics
« Reply #148 on: January 22, 2011, 06:45:16 pm »

It seems like you're strawmanning a lot here. I'm going to have to ask you to do more than blame some ambiguous group of people who you are not providing any examples of, and who seem to be defined by nothing more than a hapahzard list of faults.

Furthermore, a lot of the activities which these poorly-defined wealthy elite are described as partaking are logical actions given their situation. I find it hard to believe that you can honestly expect people to consistently act in an illogical matter.

Finally, you describe them as "a bunch of greedy traitors". That implies that they are under some sort of obligation which, by not honoring, they are betraying. I'm going to have to ask you to clarify what obligations you are referring to.
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Zrk2

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Re: Politics
« Reply #149 on: January 22, 2011, 06:51:01 pm »

Yes expkain your base assumptions for arriving at these foolish conclusions.
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