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[Virex]

Uhuh.  I think I'm gonna need a source on that one.  The problem with using reported crime would be that, well, a lot of crimes would go unreported due to the uselessness of legal authorities.

I mean yeah, I know there weren't duels and gunbattles back and forth, but...

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/the-wild-west-of-myth-and-reality.html

In spite of these specific incidents of violence, the lawlessness of the Wild West has been blown out of proportion. Ironically, the myth of the lawless West began before the period was over.
...
So, was there violence in the mountains, plains, and frontier towns of the old west? Absolutely. Yet, as with any wilderness, a man was just as likely, if not more likely, to die from thirst, starvation, drowning, freezing, snakebite, falling off a mountain, falling off his horse, being attacked by animals, or any one of a hundred other things. Most of the settlers moving west, whether they were farmers, cowboys, miners, or some other profession, were honest and hardworking. Just as today, outlaws existed, yet in most places and for most people, violent crime was not the daily norm that popular entertainment would have us believe.

The chance of being killed by a falling coconut is higher then the chance of being killed by a shark. That doesn't mean that lifeguard isn't going to sound an alarm when a big one is sighted near the beach, nor does it mean that sharks are less dangerous or violent then they're portrayed...

[Andir]

Uhuh.  I think I'm gonna need a source on that one.  The problem with using reported crime would be that, well, a lot of crimes would go unreported due to the uselessness of legal authorities.

I mean yeah, I know there weren't duels and gunbattles back and forth, but...

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/the-wild-west-of-myth-and-reality.html

In spite of these specific incidents of violence, the lawlessness of the Wild West has been blown out of proportion. Ironically, the myth of the lawless West began before the period was over.
...
So, was there violence in the mountains, plains, and frontier towns of the old west? Absolutely. Yet, as with any wilderness, a man was just as likely, if not more likely, to die from thirst, starvation, drowning, freezing, snakebite, falling off a mountain, falling off his horse, being attacked by animals, or any one of a hundred other things. Most of the settlers moving west, whether they were farmers, cowboys, miners, or some other profession, were honest and hardworking. Just as today, outlaws existed, yet in most places and for most people, violent crime was not the daily norm that popular entertainment would have us believe.

The chance of being killed by a falling coconut is higher then the chance of being killed by a shark. That doesn't mean that lifeguard isn't going to sound an alarm when a big one is sighted near the beach, nor does it mean that sharks are less dangerous or violent then they're portrayed...

Edit: after reading your post... I'm not sure what you are trying to say except that you are backing up the common viewpoint on dangerous things...

[OperatorPants]

crime

Crime have nothing to do with gun control. Violence have everything to do with gun control.

Yeah, I already said that. I said gun control =/= crime control.

Now, if violence has everything to do with gun control, then why are the most violent areas in the US have the strictest gun control? Here in my home state, Arizona, you can legally conceal carry a weapon without a license, purchase any rifle you can think of (if you include NFA transferables and tax stamp requiring guns) why is our crime rate 500% lower than our neighbors, California?

A friend of mine is even in the red tape sea, trying to buy a Maxim machine gun.

If the United Kingdom has a low homicide rate because of its gun control, why is Canadas murder rate so low? They have some pretty relaxed gun laws, man. It's a perfect example of guns not causing people to kill other people. There are countless social factors, and having guns is only part of the equation. If you look at crime rates before the 1997 ban on firearms, homicide didn't change all that much.

To assume the only thing that makes a killer a killer is his gun is to undermine and disrespect the complexity and irrationality of the human mind. It's almost offensive. 

[Virex]

I'm not too familiar with US demographics, but isn't California much more urbanized then Arizona? That could explain the higher crime numbers.


One other thing I'd like to point out is that if the number of guns doesn't alter the crime rate, then gun control isn't useless at all. There's still the number of gun-related accidents to consider, which would at least give some incentive as to limit guns to those who take the time to learn how to handle and store them properly.

[Leafsnail]

If the United Kingdom has a low homicide rate because of its gun control, why is Canadas murder rate so low? They have some pretty relaxed gun laws, man. It's a perfect example of guns not causing people to kill other people. There are countless social factors, and having guns is only part of the equation. If you look at crime rates before the 1997 ban on firearms, homicide didn't change all that much.

But it has gone down, and at a rate slightly faster than the one we were experiencing.

To assume the only thing that makes a killer a killer is his gun is to undermine and disrespect the complexity and irrationality of the human mind. It's almost offensive.

Yes, guns don't drive people to commit murder most of the time.  But they sure as hell make it a lot easier.

[fqllve]

One other thing I'd like to point out is that if the number of guns doesn't alter the crime rate, then gun control isn't useless at all. There's still the number of gun-related accidents to consider, which would at least give some incentive as to limit guns to those who take the time to learn how to handle and store them properly.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this. No one wants to see guns in the hands of dangerous idiots.

I do think that sharks are less dangerous and violent than they're portrayed. But that's a derail.

[Neonivek]

I am glad I had a statement no one tried to refute. YAY ME!

[Andir]

Yes, guns don't drive people to commit murder most of the time.  But they sure as hell make it a lot easier.

Just like all tools.   We aren't talking about guns here (well, we are...but still.)  If a person is going to build a bird house they are not going to go buy a nailgun, compressor (or cartridges) if a simple hammer is within reach.

I honestly doubt people would buy automatic rifles if they were legal.  Sure, you'd have some... but the price per round is pretty bad when it comes to shooting "for fun" that it hardly makes it worth it.  Heck, I even feel bad shooting my brother's AR15 and my Dad's M14 at times because I know how much it cost per round.  I've spent more on ammo doing just target shooting than I paid for my handgun itself (three times over.)

[Andir]

I am glad I had a statement no one tried to refute. YAY ME!

One could say the same about a lot of laws.

[Neonivek]

Well here is a related experiement

Buy a HUGE bag of M&Ms and put them away. Announce that they exist and that they are allowed to eat as much as they like but that they have to put it back.

Time how long it takes for them to be eaten.

After that is done, buy another bag and place it in a bowl and place that bowl out in the open.

The bowl should be eaten faster.

Though I don't think the same can be said about guns. Does their active presence really lead to more people using them?

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

...
Gorjo MacGrymm you lately removed the oil of Iraq from the greedy hands of French company and allowed it back where it belong, in the hand of American company (Yes it's why Chirac was mad), ruining America in the process (because beating those farmer into submission was harder than initially though) . For that you have the eternal reconnaissance of true flag weaving American patriot, the disdain of the left of the electorate (About 30% of he Americans) and the I don't give a shit where is my Havana cigar of the poeple who actually sent you there. You may also have helped with the lithium supply.

What are you talking about?  Chirac?  Ummm, he aint in charge in France no more.  Russia has the contract for most of the oil in Iraq, with some going to China and France.  Disdain now is it?  Wow, be careful, your character is showing.  If you would like to continue the discussion with some PM's, I would welcome the discouse.

[Sir Finkus]

I'm not too familiar with US demographics, but isn't California much more urbanized then Arizona? That could explain the higher crime numbers.


One other thing I'd like to point out is that if the number of guns doesn't alter the crime rate, then gun control isn't useless at all. There's still the number of gun-related accidents to consider, which would at least give some incentive as to limit guns to those who take the time to learn how to handle and store them properly.

There are many other more dangerous hobbies that don't get nearly the scrutiny of firearms.  Consider how many children die by falling into improperly fenced swimming pools, or people who permanently injure themselves playing football and other sports. 

Most people I've met who shoot are extremely safety conscious.  Unless you are shooting on your own property or something, you're usually shooting on a range, and most of the time there is a rangemaster who's job it is to enforce safety rules. 

I'm not saying that there aren't jackasses, but they are rather rare.

[Leafsnail]

There are many other more dangerous hobbies that don't get nearly the scrutiny of firearms.  Consider how many children die by falling into improperly fenced swimming pools, or people who permanently injure themselves playing football and other sports.

I suddenly have an image of swimming pool assassinations in my head.

[Eugenitor]

There are many other more dangerous hobbies that don't get nearly the scrutiny of firearms.  Consider how many children die by falling into improperly fenced swimming pools, or people who permanently injure themselves playing football and other sports.

I suddenly have an image of swimming pool assassinations in my head.

It's a good technique in the right circumstances.

[Maggarg - Eater of chicke]

The thing about crime in the old west was there were usually only two punishments. Exile and Death. Except for public drunkenness. For the most part, the desperadoes stayed in friendly climates where there was more population to hide amongst. It's likely the prevalence of firearms wasn't what kept the crime rates down.

Transylvania's nearly nonexistent crime rate under Vlad the Impaler was not due to the fact that there were no guns.

It might have had more to do with a dislike of being stuck on a huge spike, arse first.