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Author Topic: Gun rights discussion  (Read 18514 times)

ed boy

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Re: Gun rights discussion
« Reply #270 on: January 15, 2011, 04:10:33 pm »

Wouldn't that be something that would come up in the mandatory background check? I'd expect people would actually look up the charges because it makes little sense to bar a gun from someone who's been convicted of infringing a patent (unless you're barring guns from everyone of course).
That is my point precisely. Nikov said that the person in question had a police record and was shocked that he was allowed to buy a gun, but did not way what what police record was.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Gun rights discussion
« Reply #271 on: January 15, 2011, 04:13:30 pm »

They were drug-related convictions, from what the police have released. He was also denied the chance to enlist, allegedly due to a failed drug test.
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Urist is dead tome

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Re: Gun rights discussion
« Reply #272 on: January 15, 2011, 04:16:50 pm »

I think the local police have dropped the ball on this one.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Gun rights discussion
« Reply #273 on: January 15, 2011, 04:19:28 pm »

Depends on where the failure occured. It could be that the local PD didn't report things properly, or that those reports got lost along the chain of communication.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Gun rights discussion
« Reply #274 on: January 15, 2011, 04:50:00 pm »

Ah. That changes things. The information I read implied convictions.
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Nikov

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Re: Gun rights discussion
« Reply #275 on: January 15, 2011, 06:07:54 pm »

I wouldn't be surprised if this sheriff doesn't get re-elected, however.
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Aqizzar

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Re: Gun rights discussion
« Reply #276 on: January 15, 2011, 08:14:15 pm »

Discussing the effect of guns on preventing or stopping crimes is a practice that inherently relies on anecdotal situations, real and fictional.  Here's a real one for consideration that caught my attention.

I think everyone can reasonably agree that nothing that didn't remove Congresswoman Giffords from public contact could have prevented Jared Loughner from opening fire.  It's the essential advantage of an assassin, that he gets the first shot because nobody knows he's there or that he's going to shoot somebody.  So that's agreeable.  It's what happened afterward that sort of spiraled into this gun debate, that among the various sides one is that if people at the event had been armed, including Arizona Representative Trent Franks, it would not have prevented Loughner from opening fire but it would have... uh... resolved it in a more satisfying manner?  In other words, there's this wistful notion out there that if responsible people around Loughner also had guns, they could have shot him down OK Corral style and minimized his attack.

In fact, there were people in the area who were armed and ready.  Joe Zamudio was inside Walgreens, exercising Arizona's right to carry a loaded pistol concealed in his pocket, when he heard the shooting and commotion outside the store.  He ran out, hand on gun with the safety off.  He saw people struggling, bodies on the ground, and a man holding a pistol.  Being fairly close and thinking the man with the gun had not noticed him, Zamudio chose to tackle him instead.  Afterwards, they were pulled apart, when the same people struggling convinced him the man holding the gun was not the shooter.

By Zamudio's own recollection, he was fully prepared to shoot the "gunman" but chose not to, and that if he has acted on his initial impression, he would have shot the wrong person.

The inherent problem with the idea that other people being makes them better able to subdue a crime in progress, is that anyone who didn't actually see the original attack doesn't know who the "bad guy" is.  An armed Good Samaritan running onto the scene only knows that somebody is shooting, which means that anybody he sees holding a gun is potentially the right target.  If there's more than one person shooting, at each other even, now what?  And just imagine the confusion when the police arrive.  They know there have been people shot, they reach the scene and see people holding guns.  The best possible outcome is that they arrest everybody involved, to be sorted out in court later.  Even if nobody but the attacker is shot, when police respond to a round-robin shootout, they have no responsibility to take anybody's word for it on who the "real" criminal is.  After Zamudio's confusion, Cnl. Badger had the presence of mind to tell everyone to leave the gun on the ground for just that reason.

When you come packing heat the scene of a shooting, looking for the shooter, there's a few critical seconds where you have no idea who's dangerous and who's safe, and nobody else does either.  Even assuming that responsible gun owners have laser-perfect accuracy (which, when trying to find a shooter in a panic screaming crowd of wounded people, is a big fucking assumption), the most personally-protective thing to assume is that anyone armed is the dangerous target, especially anyone who assumes you are.  And the great thing about guns is, you only have to act on your well-intention but incorrect judgment for one second to ruin your life and probably somebody else's.

There's no real point here about any actual gun laws, but every time I hear the argument that more responsible gun ownership would prevent crimes or keep them from escalating, I feel like it's underscored by the belief that responsible gun owners can take down the badguys in cinematic flair.  Zamudio's own account of the shooting underscores that the most responsible decision he made was to not use his weapon, because he turned out to have the wrong man in his sights.

If you want to hear his comments yourself, here's a YouTube host of the appearance.  Ed Schultz is a blowhard of the highest caliber, but it's the only filmed interview Joe Zamudio gave, so that's what you have.
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Neonivek

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Re: Gun rights discussion
« Reply #277 on: January 15, 2011, 10:49:05 pm »

Honestly I would LOVE to hear of a shoot out that was actually caused by one actual criminal and the rest were people shooting at eachother not knowing whos side the other was on.
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Urist is dead tome

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Re: Gun rights discussion
« Reply #278 on: January 15, 2011, 10:50:36 pm »

Even assuming that responsible gun owners have laser-perfect accuracy (which, when trying to find a shooter in a panic screaming crowd of wounded people, is a big fucking assumption), the most personally-protective thing to assume is that anyone armed is the dangerous target, especially anyone who assumes you are.

I'm envisioning this massive real-life loyalty cascade in which a store full of gun owners reacts to someone holding a gun, hearing shots fired, running to the scene, and promptly blowing each other's heads off, rinse and repeat, in an expanding wave of death.

And then China Russia and Iran, seize this oppurtunity to invade America's number one natural resource. The Wal Mart in Vermont in which the shooting happened.
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Zidane

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Re: Gun rights discussion
« Reply #279 on: January 16, 2011, 03:44:19 am »

To me all of Lord Browning's creations are beautiful masterpieces that deserve adoration. Not to mention Mauser, oh god Mausers!

Nothing I love more than antique guns and high capacity magazines.
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Nikov

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Re: Gun rights discussion
« Reply #280 on: January 16, 2011, 03:58:09 am »

Honestly I would LOVE to hear of a shoot out that was actually caused by one actual criminal and the rest were people shooting at eachother not knowing whos side the other was on.

You'd think stuff like that would be on the news all the time since its so rhetorically inevitable. I smell a cover-up by the pro-gun media.
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I should probably have my head checked, because I find myself in complete agreement with Nikov.

malimbar04

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Re: Gun rights discussion
« Reply #281 on: January 16, 2011, 09:18:37 pm »

Honestly I would LOVE to hear of a shoot out that was actually caused by one actual criminal and the rest were people shooting at eachother not knowing whos side the other was on.

You'd think stuff like that would be on the news all the time since its so rhetorically inevitable. I smell a cover-up by the pro-gun media.
The only time I've heard of things like this happening are with an organized military fighting another organized military. But even then it is dictated by the laws of cliche that they end up shooting themselves in friendly-fire.
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Andir

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Re: Gun rights discussion
« Reply #282 on: January 17, 2011, 07:29:25 am »

Discussing the effect of guns on preventing or stopping crimes is a practice that inherently relies on anecdotal situations, real and fictional.  Here's a real one for consideration that caught my attention.

I think everyone can reasonably agree that nothing that didn't remove Congresswoman Giffords from public contact could have prevented Jared Loughner from opening fire.  It's the essential advantage of an assassin, that he gets the first shot because nobody knows he's there or that he's going to shoot somebody.  So that's agreeable.  It's what happened afterward that sort of spiraled into this gun debate, that among the various sides one is that if people at the event had been armed, including Arizona Representative Trent Franks, it would not have prevented Loughner from opening fire but it would have... uh... resolved it in a more satisfying manner?  In other words, there's this wistful notion out there that if responsible people around Loughner also had guns, they could have shot him down OK Corral style and minimized his attack.

In fact, there were people in the area who were armed and ready.  Joe Zamudio was inside Walgreens, exercising Arizona's right to carry a loaded pistol concealed in his pocket, when he heard the shooting and commotion outside the store.  He ran out, hand on gun with the safety off.  He saw people struggling, bodies on the ground, and a man holding a pistol.  Being fairly close and thinking the man with the gun had not noticed him, Zamudio chose to tackle him instead.  Afterwards, they were pulled apart, when the same people struggling convinced him the man holding the gun was not the shooter.

By Zamudio's own recollection, he was fully prepared to shoot the "gunman" but chose not to, and that if he has acted on his initial impression, he would have shot the wrong person.

The inherent problem with the idea that other people being makes them better able to subdue a crime in progress, is that anyone who didn't actually see the original attack doesn't know who the "bad guy" is.  An armed Good Samaritan running onto the scene only knows that somebody is shooting, which means that anybody he sees holding a gun is potentially the right target.  If there's more than one person shooting, at each other even, now what?  And just imagine the confusion when the police arrive.  They know there have been people shot, they reach the scene and see people holding guns.  The best possible outcome is that they arrest everybody involved, to be sorted out in court later.  Even if nobody but the attacker is shot, when police respond to a round-robin shootout, they have no responsibility to take anybody's word for it on who the "real" criminal is.  After Zamudio's confusion, Cnl. Badger had the presence of mind to tell everyone to leave the gun on the ground for just that reason.

When you come packing heat the scene of a shooting, looking for the shooter, there's a few critical seconds where you have no idea who's dangerous and who's safe, and nobody else does either.  Even assuming that responsible gun owners have laser-perfect accuracy (which, when trying to find a shooter in a panic screaming crowd of wounded people, is a big fucking assumption), the most personally-protective thing to assume is that anyone armed is the dangerous target, especially anyone who assumes you are.  And the great thing about guns is, you only have to act on your well-intention but incorrect judgment for one second to ruin your life and probably somebody else's.

There's no real point here about any actual gun laws, but every time I hear the argument that more responsible gun ownership would prevent crimes or keep them from escalating, I feel like it's underscored by the belief that responsible gun owners can take down the badguys in cinematic flair.  Zamudio's own account of the shooting underscores that the most responsible decision he made was to not use his weapon, because he turned out to have the wrong man in his sights.

If you want to hear his comments yourself, here's a YouTube host of the appearance.  Ed Schultz is a blowhard of the highest caliber, but it's the only filmed interview Joe Zamudio gave, so that's what you have.

First... Wow, I guess you really can twist any story to your side with enough thought.

1.  What he did proves that having a gun in the hands of a citizen is not always going to break out in a Hollywood-esk Wild West shootout.  And you know it.  I love hearing people say that will happen when contrary evidence shows the opposite.

2.  The fact that he showed up and saw people wrestling with someone and chose not to act was correct.  I'm not sure how it got twisted into thinking he was going to shoot at someone being subdued except for the fact that he had a split second thought running to the scene that he knew what had to be done if the case called for it.  I think he was wrong going in to a group of people, hand to hand with a gun on him.  That was the first thing I was told NOT to do.  You do not know the capabilities of the other person/people and you could just be providing them ammo and a weapon.  Standing at range and telling the person to drop their weapon was the best you can do.  If you are positioned to shoot the person, and they have to turn to shoot at you, your chances of coming out alive are better because their accuracy is gone in having to turn toward you and aim.  Simple verbal commands is all he needed.  Telling the person to drop the weapon... getting the responses back on who the real shooter is.  You don't even have to draw, but I'll admit I probably would have taken up a defensive position if I were him then gave them notice and commands/inquiry.  (Yes, I know all about Hind-sight's visual acuity.)

3.  There's a better full length interview in the related links to the side that gives the whole story.  I encourage you to watch any of those and not the one with the label that defines him as a psychopath ready to shoot someone because he had a thought running to the scene.
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Phmcw

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Re: Gun rights discussion
« Reply #283 on: January 17, 2011, 08:41:32 am »

I really hope that wide scale shoot out are not common enough in the state to give any relevance to your argument.
Which is, I remind you, "If it could happen, it would have already happened.".
And our argument (I brought it a few pages ago, too) is backed by the quite high casualties substantiated by soldiers in friendly fire.

Now, anyone with a gun draw in a shootout scene is likely to be shot. Your a cop.  How do you tell the difference in a split second.  People need to do more than carry guns if the want to stop crimes.

Anyway, two times more homicide in America than in any western European countries. Your gun fail to protect you.
Time to find something else.
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Andir

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Re: Gun rights discussion
« Reply #284 on: January 17, 2011, 10:19:17 am »

I really hope that wide scale shoot out are not common enough in the state to give any relevance to your argument.
Which is, I remind you, "If it could happen, it would have already happened.".
And our argument (I brought it a few pages ago, too) is backed by the quite high casualties substantiated by soldiers in friendly fire.

Now, anyone with a gun draw in a shootout scene is likely to be shot. Your a cop.  How do you tell the difference in a split second.  People need to do more than carry guns if the want to stop crimes.

Anyway, two times more homicide in America than in any western European countries. Your gun fail to protect you.
Time to find something else.
Cops don't shoot everyone with guns.  They only shoot at those who are shooting at people they determine to be non-hostile (or aiming toward them) and are also authorized to shoot to protect others.  If they show up on the scene and you are actively talking to the person and not shooting they are not going to shoot you.  Also, if they do show up they are trained to actively start discussion with you, not just start firing.  I don't know where you get your ideas.

These cases are hardly comparable to war-zone situations where active gunfire is expected and (in today's war) front lines are not defined.  By even bringing up those numbers, you show how little you actually understand about the whole issue.  It actually makes sense to me now why you think that a full blown shooting escapade will erupt.  You watch too much television.  That's the only explanation.

And as far as statistics on gun related crime.  That's been covered.  The high numbers are inflated by urban crime where gun restrictions are in effect.  You are simply ignoring part of the numbers to fit your agenda.  Yes, there are some very high crime places in the US.  Most (if not all) of those places have active gun control laws in place and it's only making gun related crime go up (Detroit, LA, New York, .  There are also statistics that show that states with very "gun owner friendly" laws have lower crime and gun related incidents... but you gloss over that because you refuse, because it doesn't fit in your mold for how you think the world should be run.

Also, some interesting information here as to why you may see those lower numbers.  I'll give you a hint.  Politics play a part (ie: how things are reported.)
http://extranosalley.com/?p=8208
http://extranosalley.com/?p=8047
http://extranosalley.com/?p=8696
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."
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