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[IronyOwl]

Hm. I tend to not like arbitrarily assigning values to things, but you're right that there's no way to get something without just sort of grabbing it.

I'll have to think about this more. I'm not sure we want a system that linearly rewards wealth-making, but we probably don't want to ignore it either. The issues inherent with assigning wealth to things (declaring Kogan's blocks and walls vital and therefore far more valuable than they "should" be, for instance) are a separate can of worms, but we still need guidelines there too.

[V-Norrec]

Well like I said, that is the very basics of the system, we can modify it of course, but we need to have some sort of reward system in place so that we can make certain activities more "valuable" than other activities.  Right now, faffing about has about the same value to your character as doing hard work.  We need to change that somehow so the dwarves will be more motivated to perform activities that lead to the creation of wealth and safety.

Edit:  Also, if Hastur doesn't respond, when do we skip over his argument?

[Shade-o]

I'll give him a few more hours then we can reach a verdict.

Incidentally, you scared DrunkDorfPally away from playing because you so brazenly persecuted Hastur for taking things.

[IronyOwl]

The issue I have with your system is that it's completely arbitrary- we have to develop point values for EVERYTHING. I'd rather base it on something concrete, like the actual value of the goods or hours work put in.

Both of those have issues, of course. Raw value needs things like defense arbitrarily declared anyway, and has the danger of rewarding some professions more than others, which I don't like. Hours needs every job declared useful or not, and rewards unskilled peasants as much as master craftsmen, which isn't good. I'm sure there must be some good way to combine them, but I can't think of what that would be.

[V-Norrec]

Arbitrary values are best I think at this point, we can develop a better system AFTER we're in a position to survive.  That way peasants and craftsmant are both equally rewarded at this point for contriubting to survival.

[Shade-o]

Why not just have an overseer-type position? Role is to check that everybody is doing something productive, especially things mandated by the leadership. Then if somebody insists on wasting time or materials, like trying to skill up their armoursmithing skill with limited metal supplies when they are at -2 Terrible level, they can get beaten, fined, or imprisoned, or forced to labour in the mines extra-hard.

Uh, Nylona said that.

[V-Norrec]

.... hmmm, not bad.  We can work out an economic system later, that's a great idea though Shade-O.  I hereby nominate myself for the position, because I actually have enough time to look through everyone's schedule.  What sounds fair, about 12 hours a day of labor, 8 hours sleep, 2 hours eating, 2 hours free time?

Edit:  Btw, in traditional DF terms, how many years has this world been around?

[FuzzyZergling]

Question for Shade-o: Does having a lot of unskilled dwarves tend to farms decrease the production of the farms, as opposed to one or two skilled farmers?

[Shade-o]

It is currently 2184 - Year of the Dark Mechanism, of the Age of Empires. Geologist dwarves (also known as 'those brainy miners') insist that the world could very well be millions or billions of years old, due to the formation of rock types and fossils. That, or it was created relatively recently by an intelligence that just wanted it to look like it was incredibly old.

A very unskilled dwarf (noble, merchant, artisan, thinker) could very well make it worse on a try, but will eventually provide an improvement. Gods help you if they also have things like Withered Touch.

[CoughDrop]

There's a difference between Dictator, Leader, and Lax Beyond all Belief.  Right now you're in the Lax beyond all belief category.  If you want to switch it up to Leader, then that'd be great so we can make more progress.

Personally, I prefer the situation we've got now, where someone steps up if they feel it's needed, but otherwise we all do our own thing. Having an official leader who's technically the highest authority is kind of nice, but I don't think we need a leader in the traditional sense.

Litast will step things up a notch as of now.

It's simple, right now there is no way to get anything from the communal stockpile, other than to steal it.  Thus if I want to create something that's only for me, I'd essentially have to steal the parts to make it.  My idea is reward people for finding food, making booze, mining, killing attackers, etc. etc. by creating a system where you can personally claim CERTAIN items out of the communal stockpile by doing tasks of high value.  For example, I've come up with this as a basic system

Find/Gather 30 food:  1 Point  (This is one day of food for everyone)
Tend the Farmlands for 2 weeks:  1 Point  (not applicable if you have the negative plant growing trait)
Brew 30 units of alcohol:  1 Point
Mine 10 units of stone:  1 Point
Mine 5 units of metal:  1 Point
Create 3 piece of furniture for the community: 1 point (this will go up in time and the others will go down as we alleviate the food crisis and have a better gathering system in place)
Build 10 units of protective wall (must be above makeshift):  1 Point
Create 10 units of goods for trading:  1 Point

Then we simply have to have to assign prices to everything in the communal stockpile that we agree to let be taken, and suddenly people have a legitimate way to gain wealth through hard work.  As I said it's a little bit of a basic system, but it will encourage people to work towards our goals of establishing ourselves and get paid for it.

I really like this, except for the fact that some will gain more points than others simply because they can spend the same amount of time on a project, but not earn. Then again, you could also not work very hard at a job, but put in the same time. Let's start off with what you have here, and then modify it as we get more feedback.

As for what the points can actually be spent on, I don't think saying you can take whatever from the communal stockpile, but set aside a subgroup of said stockpile to be used for rewards.

Also, I support Norrec becoming manager.

[Shade-o]

So, fearsome, hands-off leader, when do you mildly suggest that the next caravan will be assembled?

[CoughDrop]

So, fearsome, hands-off leader, when will you mildly suggest that the next caravan will be assembled?

The caravan should be set to leave as soon as soon as those who are going are ready.

Details coming very soon in main thread.

(She may be unthreatening, but Litast will not hesitate to smack someone)

[Samthere]

I return! I've read through the COURTROOM DRAMA in the main thread (MY PUPPY WAS A WITNESS :O) but not the new ~35 pages in the OOC thread. Is it schedule time or what?

[Ochita]

When I get home I'll see if I can do values for each item or so.

[Nirur Torir]

I'm still interested in having a position of command, but haven't done much with it for three reasons:
1) My power is undefined. I have mostly been following CoughDrop's example of hands-off leadership.
2) I tend to be offline and sleeping when this is most active.
3) I feel like I'd be stepping on CoughDrop's toes if I tried to do much while our dwarves are in the same place.

If walls are set at a certain value per square, then masons have incentive to build lower quality walls:

Spoiler: Wall Building Info (click to show/hide)

Building walls has several levels of strength and effort.

Boulders/Logs are Large, Blocks and Beams are Medium.

A makeshift wall can be built using single large construction item. It has little structural strength but can be quickly raised.
A fragile wall can be built using three medium items. It is sufficient for most civilian purposes, but can be destroyed by concerted efforts and will leak water.
A strong wall can be build using six medium items. It is quite strong and waterproof, but is still vulnerable to concentrated damage.
A reinforced wall can be built using twelve medium items. It creates the strongest conventional structure, allowing it to absorb siege weapons and be built to great heights.
Soil and rubble can be packed in between walls to add cheap structural strength. If it is not contained, it will form ramps.

A floor can be built using three medium items. It will support most creatures and items, but will collapse under heavy weight or damage. Building walls underneath will provide better support, though it will block off the level below.

A natural or artificial structure may collapse if it lacks sufficient support.

Other large items may block movement, such as statues, or seal off the square such as doors and floodgates.

Medium containers can be stacked in a square up to three times, blocking movement.

Currently, the new temporary wall is set to be at Strong, while the permanent wall will be Reinforced.