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[Jim Groovester]

See, you're trying to say "Dariush was a sorcerer! There's no way I'd bus my sorcerer if I was scum!" and "This is Dariush we're talking about, he's such a bad player he probably thought he could get me lynched with that fakeclaim that everyone else immediately recognized as horseshit" at the same time. You're also saying that if he'd stopped doing what he'd been doing, he wouldn't have been lynched, which is either irrelevant or agreement with the notion that he was doing it on purpose.

I don't see the contradiction and have no idea what point you're trying to make.

I can say both of them at the same time because I'm saying either with a different set of circumstances in mind.

Never said I was confirmed. But, come on. I get targeted by Dariush, he throws all the stupid shit he can think of to get me lynched, and then attempts an obvious spur of the moment fake claim, which backfires in the worst way possible, and you think I bussed him, and had this all planned out? No, the far simpler explanation is that Dariush is idiot scum and I'm town.

It's not a confirmation, but it's close. At least I think so anyway.

And how effective was any of that shit at getting you lynched? How effective was it at clearing you? If you answer "0" to the former and "nearly completely" to the latter, that's some awfully convenient scum.

It's awfully convenient for me as town as well.

Don't accuse me of being scum because Dariush is fucking incompetent. That has absolutely nothing to do with me, and to even try it is scummy scummy scummy scummy scummy. Saying I told him to do it is speculation and WIFOM on your part, and is thus a completely worthless argument, because you can't prove or disprove it and neither can I, but since the majority of your argument relies upon it instead of a small portion, you are scum because you don't really have anything solid.

This is why you're full of shit and should be lynched immediately.

And refusing to answer questions? That's a lie. I see a bunch of answers to questions I've received. The only question I didn't answer was yours about how my scum picks have evolved over the course of the game. You could just read the thread if you wanted to know that, but I'll summarize: vadia for being spastic and voting himself, Dariush for keeping his RVS on me, vadia again for being crazy, Dariush again for stupid shit and then his fakeclaim, then NativeForeigner, KaminaSquirtle, and NirurTorir for lurking, and then you for trotting out your mess of WIFOM, then lordnincompoop for agreeing with it and being ridiculously lazy.

It was like pulling teeth to get you to list your scumpicks, and it's still pretty much lurkers and your attacker.

Yours are comparable or worse. You jumped on the TacoDan wagon, and then all of Day 2 you were beating up vadia or waiting on KaminaSquirtle to get back. You were dead silent about Dariush until he fake claimed.

So let's hear it, IronyOwl. Tell us what you thought of Dariush right up until he fakeclaimed. I really want to know.

No, it happened during Night 2. Immediately after the day ended I got a PM.

I asked the go-between if he was the Water Sorcerer, because he dropped vague hints about it during Day 2. He confirmed that he was, and I had no reason to not believe him. If I was scum I would have targeted him.

Fair enough, but if you're cunning enough to pick up that level of detail, I hardly think noticing an attempt to bait you is out of the question.

So if I think the go-between is the Water Sorcerer because of vague hints he was dropping, I could also smell him laying a trap for me?

Seems unlikely, honestly. I thought the go-between was being candid and had no reason to think otherwise. He was very convincing.

[JanusTwoface]

Spoiler: Vote Count (click to show/hide)

>>> Vote Count <<<

30 Jan 2011 @ 11:59 pm EST

Notes
Apprentices: Send me your assists before the day ends.


KaminaSquirtle, Master of Earth has been modkilled!
KaminaSquirtle was an Innocent Sorcerer.

There are no remaining Sorcerers.

Jim Groovester	(2)	- IronyOwl, lordnincompoop
IronyOwl	(1)	- Jim Groovester
Jokerman-EXE	(1)	- Nirur Torir
Nirur Torir	(0)	-
Toaster	(0)	-
vadia	(0)	-

Not Voting: Jokerman-EXE, Toaster


Let me know if I missed anything.

[Jim Groovester]

Well, crap. Now it's milo.

Unvote. We should probably no lynch.

But I want to hear everybody's top scum pick before we go through with it. I'll extend and badger everybody about it if I have to.

And since all the sorcerers are dead I think we should all claim our assists as well, since there's no longer any danger over exposing the town sorcerers. I'll start. I assisted Earth on Night 1 and Water on Night 2.

[Toaster]

I'm for a no lynch and claiming assists (Air then Earth).  My scum pick will come when I'm done rerereading.  However, I noticed I missed a question addressed to me, so I'm going to knock that out while I'm thinking about it.


Vadia:

Assuming you're still playing when you see this:  Why did you post this at all?  I don't see the point.

Also, your case on Kamina is nothing but WIFOM, and it's not even good WIFOM. 

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Wine_In_Front_Of_Me  I don't see ANY similarity between his absence seems very suspicious and that article.  try explaining your point better.

Your post here:

Meanwhile Squirtle is looking too suspicious in his silence.  While it is very possible stupidity I'm going to need a good explanation from the one who stated this:

is that not a reason? 

He hasn't posted in a while and he said that killed town, so he's -- trying to kill town?  I kept the whole quote so that we could evaluate the validity of this argument, but I think the fact that he said "Scum shouldn't lurk [I'm going to lurk now]" Is quite suspicious.  Was this not clear -- I thought it as obvious as the grimace on your face.

That is what I am referring to.  Just because does what he says scum should or shouldn't do doesn't give you a case against him.

[Nirur Torir]

I put the pressure on Dariush that caused him to fakeclaim, and I pushed my suspicions of other people, like Toaster and vadia. Whereas you did...what again?

Emphasis added by me. I think that Jim was the one putting the most pressure on him. You were pressuring him because it would have looked scummy to stop.

So how about, when you decide to vote someone, you actually have a reason, instead of a poorly-founded, hypocritical piece of garbage with no weight behind it?

How about I attack you until you slip up, like you already did?

Well, crap. Now it's milo.

Unvote. We should probably no lynch.

But I want to hear everybody's top scum pick before we go through with it. I'll extend and badger everybody about it if I have to.

And since all the sorcerers are dead I think we should all claim our assists as well, since there's no longer any danger over exposing the town sorcerers. I'll start. I assisted Earth on Night 1 and Water on Night 2.

Good idea. I assisted air day one, and water day 2.

Unvote. No lynch.

I think that Toaster's my top scum pick right now, unless the scum decided to both assist townie schools night 1.

[Toaster]

I'm going to dump my notes wholesale, since they have the post references.  Summary below:

Spoiler: Toaster's Notes (click to show/hide)

Irony:

RV Vadia (how do you catch scum?)
tries to fish role from vadia? (67)
Focuses on vadia (101)
Fourth man on Taco Dan, changes majority to him (140)
Buddying vadia? (179)
Attacks vadia for thinking D2 might be LYLO
Shifts off Vadia, thinks is a "hyperactive noob", votes Kamina for lurking (225)
Votes Dariush for his claim sucking (263)
Votes Jim start of D3 asking for scumpicks (285)
Reverse bus theory (290)

Jim:

RV Native
Digs Dariush for RVing him without a question, RV Kamina (60)
Tells vadia not to buddy him
Votes him shortly after
Claims preoccupation (139)
Commentary on lurkers- tries to distract to them?  (203)
Attacks vadia heavily before Dar's fake claim (248) but doesn't mention him afterwards
OMGUS Irony - also mention of lack of assist (289)

Joker:

Attacks Native for bandwagonning on a bandwagon (119)
Never votes or takes a very firm stance D1

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74796.msg1905048#msg1905048  Excuse and a deflecting response
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74796.msg1906405#msg1906405  Noncommittal statement and excuse
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74796.msg1907137#msg1907137  Statement of suspects with no attacks
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74796.msg1909184#msg1909184  Two excuses and a passive commentary
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74796.msg1909724#msg1909724  First actual content of the day- question to me and Dariush
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74796.msg1911315#msg1911315  Pressure on Dariush
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74796.msg1911409#msg1911409  Vote Dariush
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74796.msg1911463#msg1911463  Comment on Jim's randomized vote
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74796.msg1914488#msg1914488  Questionhttp://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74796.msg1914497#msg1914497  Calling Dariush's claim BS
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74796.msg1916225#msg1916225  Said question to me

Nirur:

RV Zath, complain about limericks
Semi-attacks on vadia (79)
Questions Taco Dan about how he finds scum (110)
Votes Dar for slip I pointed out/his response to that (135)
First of D2, doesn't vote Dar, but questions him (167)
Votes Dar for fake claim after previously making an excuse (270)
Finally posts suspicion list (Dar on top, Joker/Native for lurking (274)
Opens D3 with lurking votes
Suspicious of me/IO for "too townie"


Vadia/nincompoop:

Starts out saying he'll make newbie mistakes- RV Jokerman
Proposes (bad) assist plan
Suggests massclaim D1 (69)
Claims he softballed (74)
Backs off (80)
Seems convinced D2 is lylo due to scum having an extra NK
Appeal to authority re lurking (90)
Self vote (105)
Comes back, votes Jim for not setting up an assist plan (171)
Oddball voting for Jim (178)
Several bad arguments for attacking Jim- no vote on him (196)
Jim calls him on that, and he votes in response (201)
Changes back to voting Squirtle for lurking- WIFOM (235)
Expands on above - tries to meta Jim (243)
--Replaced--
Votes Jim purely on Irony's argument- he has "no reason to think otherwise." (302)

Jokerman's D2 looks different because I did it at another time.

A few things jumped out at me.

Jim and Joker:  You both were attacking vadia heavily prior to his replacement.  When D3 starts, you ignore him (until he posts for Jim, but still only for D3).  Why?


Anyway, top two scum picks in order:

Nirur:  Has done very little this game.  He softballed vadia early, then voted Dariush for the slip I pointed out D1.  D2 he starts out questioning Dariush without voting him.  After a couple excuse posts, he votes Dariush after his fake claim, and provides a list.  D3 he starts off attacking lurkers, and suspects me and IO for being "too townie," which is a terrible attack.  Now he suspects me for my assist- something I could easily turn around on him.

Irony:  Focuses early on vadia.  He was the shift vote (and 4th vote) that changed the majority to Taco Dan.  D2 he's back on vadia, and I thought I saw buddying in there (reply 179).  Eventually, he proclaims vadia a "hyperactive noob", and he votes Kamina for lurking until he votes Dariush for his fake claim.


Jim:  Why did you mention the lack of an assist last night?  At that point (day end), we only had town sorcs, so it's more notable that a scum knowingly assisted a town sorc.


Vadia was hard to read, so I'm waiting to hear more from nincompoop.

[Jokerman-EXE]

No Lynch. I assisted Water twice.

I was never really all that suspicious of Vadia, but I felt that someone needed to point out some of the things he was doing. He feels like noobtown to me.

[JanusTwoface]

Spoiler: Vote Count (click to show/hide)

>>> Vote Count <<<

30 Jan 2011 @ 11:59 pm EST

Notes
There are no remaining Sorcerers.

Jim Groovester	(2)	- IronyOwl, lordnincompoop
IronyOwl	(0)	-
Jokerman-EXE	(0)	-
Nirur Torir	(0)	-
Toaster	(0)	-
vadia	(0)	-
Not Voting	(0)	-
No Lynch	(4)	- Jim Groovester, Jokerman-EXE, Nirur Torir, Toaster

Let me know if I missed anything.

[Jim Groovester]

Jim and Joker:  You both were attacking vadia heavily prior to his replacement.  When D3 starts, you ignore him (until he posts for Jim, but still only for D3).  Why?

My thoughts for Day 3 were "Find partners of Dariush through incriminating actions, like voting Dariush after he fake claims, and so on," not "Badger the replacement of the new player for things he can't answer for."

Jim:  Why did you mention the lack of an assist last night?  At that point (day end), we only had town sorcs, so it's more notable that a scum knowingly assisted a town sorc.

I don't think this was directed at me.

Anyways, we need to hear from IronyOwl and lordnincompoop about who they assisted.

[Toaster]

Jim:  Yes it was.

And, great, somebody didn't assist again.

[lordnincompoop]

I assisted nobody, mostly because I haven't even gone through a full day yet.

Vadia however proceeded with the plan mentioned at the start: No Assist then Earth.

[Jim Groovester]

Jim:  Yes it was.

And, great, somebody didn't assist again.

Right.

In general, apprentices should assist because not doing so doesn't help the town out at all. Somebody was either lazy, which is bad, or deliberately did not assist anybody, which is also bad.

Additionally, the go-between mentioned trying to revive Zathras as the Water Sorcerer's third level spell. So we may have missed out on getting a confirmed town sorcerer running about because of laziness or deliberate foul play.

lordnincompoop: Scumpicks and opinions on no lynching. What are they?

[Toaster]

Jim:  You missed a point of substance there.  After it was obvious Dariush was going to be lynched, scum knew that all the remaining sorcs were town, so it'd be logical for them to not assist.  However, one of them assisted a town sorc anyway.  Why mention the lack of assist when logically it was one of the scum?

[Jim Groovester]

Because that didn't occur to me when I said it, only that somebody didn't do their job.

[IronyOwl]

No Lynch. Water, Earth.

Because that didn't occur to me when I said it, only that somebody didn't do their job.

It didn't occur to you that there's scum apprentices? What?

See, you're trying to say "Dariush was a sorcerer! There's no way I'd bus my sorcerer if I was scum!" and "This is Dariush we're talking about, he's such a bad player he probably thought he could get me lynched with that fakeclaim that everyone else immediately recognized as horseshit" at the same time. You're also saying that if he'd stopped doing what he'd been doing, he wouldn't have been lynched, which is either irrelevant or agreement with the notion that he was doing it on purpose.

I don't see the contradiction and have no idea what point you're trying to make.

I can say both of them at the same time because I'm saying either with a different set of circumstances in mind.

What different set of circumstances, one where you're town and one where you're scum? "If I were scum Dariush's incompetence would totally be completely avoidable but if I were town it'd be business as usual?"

You're trying to pass off his actions as normal while maintaining he'd be too valuable to bus as a partner. How the hell do you figure someone who kamikazes to no effect (I'm sorry, in order to confirm a townie) on D2 is too valuable to possibly bus?

Never said I was confirmed. But, come on. I get targeted by Dariush, he throws all the stupid shit he can think of to get me lynched, and then attempts an obvious spur of the moment fake claim, which backfires in the worst way possible, and you think I bussed him, and had this all planned out? No, the far simpler explanation is that Dariush is idiot scum and I'm town.

It's not a confirmation, but it's close. At least I think so anyway.

And how effective was any of that shit at getting you lynched? How effective was it at clearing you? If you answer "0" to the former and "nearly completely" to the latter, that's some awfully convenient scum.

It's awfully convenient for me as town as well.

Don't accuse me of being scum because Dariush is fucking incompetent. That has absolutely nothing to do with me, and to even try it is scummy scummy scummy scummy scummy. Saying I told him to do it is speculation and WIFOM on your part, and is thus a completely worthless argument, because you can't prove or disprove it and neither can I, but since the majority of your argument relies upon it instead of a small portion, you are scum because you don't really have anything solid.

This is why you're full of shit and should be lynched immediately.

So when Dariush's actions clear you, hey look everyone you're pretty much confirmed now. When they incriminate you, hey Dariush's incompetence has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with me SCUM SCUM SCUM ONLY SCUM WOULD SAY THAT! In fact, this whole argument is meaningless because it can't be proven! YOU'VE GOT NO PROOF, YOU HEAR ME? NO PROOF!!!

No. Just because I don't have an inspection result does not mean it's meaningless, and it certainly doesn't mean it's scummy.

And refusing to answer questions? That's a lie. I see a bunch of answers to questions I've received. The only question I didn't answer was yours about how my scum picks have evolved over the course of the game. You could just read the thread if you wanted to know that, but I'll summarize: vadia for being spastic and voting himself, Dariush for keeping his RVS on me, vadia again for being crazy, Dariush again for stupid shit and then his fakeclaim, then NativeForeigner, KaminaSquirtle, and NirurTorir for lurking, and then you for trotting out your mess of WIFOM, then lordnincompoop for agreeing with it and being ridiculously lazy.

It was like pulling teeth to get you to list your scumpicks, and it's still pretty much lurkers and your attacker.

Yours are comparable or worse. You jumped on the TacoDan wagon, and then all of Day 2 you were beating up vadia or waiting on KaminaSquirtle to get back. You were dead silent about Dariush until he fake claimed.

So let's hear it, IronyOwl. Tell us what you thought of Dariush right up until he fakeclaimed. I really want to know.

I'm sorry, is the Taco Dan lynch scummy now? Do you take issue with my bandwagoning a suspicious lurker? I wouldn't dream to imply that it clears me, but you realize all three of our sorcerers were also on that lynch, right?

And what did that beating up of vadia result in? Keeping my vote on him as an easy lynch until Dariush claimed? Or, you know, deciding he was town, which is kind of the purpose of scumhunting?

My opinion of Dariush before he fakeclaimed was that he was being a jackass, but I couldn't get a solid town/scum verdict on him. I did think some of what he was saying was decent, though most was indeed asinine and/or aggressively insulting.