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Author Topic: Riddles - Dwarf style  (Read 7883 times)

martinuzz

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Re: Riddles - Dwarf style
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2011, 02:08:13 pm »

Ask "are you the truthful dwarf". If he says yes, you know the question is true, thus ask "who is the truthful dwarf?", and his answer will be the truthful dwarf.
If at first he says no, then you know that the next question must be a lie. Thus ask "who among your group is not the truthful dwarf?" and his answer will be the truthful dwarf.
Very good.You win: the honour to put together the next dwarven riddle
Oh wait, no, too fast. Your first question needs more to it.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 02:17:54 pm by martinuzz »
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Shades

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Re: Riddles - Dwarf style
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2011, 02:08:40 pm »

Ask "are you the truthful dwarf". If he says yes, you know the question is true, thus ask "who is the truthful dwarf?", and his answer will be the truthful dwarf.
If at first he says no, then you know that the next question must be a lie. Thus ask "who among your group is not the truthful dwarf?" and his answer will be the truthful dwarf.
"Also, we have no control over whether we lie or not on a first question."
He lies yes.. answers truth for truthful dwarf.
He truths no, lies the wrong dwarf.

That was Cruxador's point you have three options
first question -> truthful dwarf -> yes -> next answer is true
first question -> lieing dwarf (lie) -> yes -> next answer is true
first question -> lieing dwarf (true) -> no -> next answer is lie

So now we have two options, we know the next answer is true if you had a yes and a lie if you have a no.
The truthful question can only be answered with the correct dwarf as it's a true statement, the lie question only has one possible dwarf who is not the truthful dwarf, again the correct one.

Unless of course the lie is 'I don't know' or something along those lines.

Edit: typing takes me too long :P
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martinuzz

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Re: Riddles - Dwarf style
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2011, 02:17:03 pm »

The second part of Cruxador's answer holds the key. If you get no for an answer, the next answer will always be a lie, for you know you are dealing with a semi-liar, for the truthspeaker would never have said no.
Hence, expecting the lie, you formulate a negative question i.e.  "who is not..."

If the answer to the first question is yes, you have either the truthspeaker, who will speak truth again, or the semi-liar, who has just lied and also will speak truth on the next question. Thus, you formulate a positive question i.e. "who is..."

Hence the hint.. While you only ask two questions, you need to have 3 questions prepared to deal with the 2 possible answers to the first question.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 02:23:01 pm by martinuzz »
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Nexii Malthus

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Re: Riddles - Dwarf style
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2011, 01:40:39 am »

Quote from: Shades
the lie question only has one possible dwarf who is not the truthful dwarf, again the correct one.
I have a problem with this, seems like a very weak assumption rather than a logical point. Not sure how to articulate it.

Shades

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Re: Riddles - Dwarf style
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2011, 03:26:45 am »

Quote from: Shades
the lie question only has one possible dwarf who is not the truthful dwarf, again the correct one.
I have a problem with this, seems like a very weak assumption rather than a logical point. Not sure how to articulate it.

If you note the next line in post you quoted.

Unless of course the lie is 'I don't know' or something along those lines.

Pretty much states that problem too :)
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Its like playing god with sentient legos. - They Got Leader
[Dwarf Fortress] plays like a dizzyingly complex hybrid of Dungeon Keeper and The Sims, if all your little people were manic-depressive alcoholics. - tv tropes
You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right. - xkcd

Falc

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Re: Riddles - Dwarf style
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2011, 03:48:02 am »

It's stated in the riddle that: "Furthermore, we do know who actually pulled the damn lever, but that knowledge is of no use to us, as part of the curse." This is also the thruthful dwarf.

So you just need the proper second question. You can't ask them to point out a dwarf who will speak the truth if asked, because that's not predictable at this point, but you should be able to ask something like: "Point out a dwarf who does not know the way out of the forest."
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Shades

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Re: Riddles - Dwarf style
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2011, 04:18:04 am »

Very good.You win: the honour to put together the next dwarven riddle
Oh wait, no, too fast. Your first question needs more to it.

How so? I mean what situation does the first question not work?
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Its like playing god with sentient legos. - They Got Leader
[Dwarf Fortress] plays like a dizzyingly complex hybrid of Dungeon Keeper and The Sims, if all your little people were manic-depressive alcoholics. - tv tropes
You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right. - xkcd

martinuzz

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Re: Riddles - Dwarf style
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2011, 04:39:22 am »

Ask "are you the truthful dwarf". If he says yes, you know the question is true, thus ask "who is the truthful dwarf?", and his answer will be the truthful dwarf.
If at first he says no, then you know that the next question must be a lie. Thus ask "who among your group is not the truthful dwarf?" and his answer will be the truthful dwarf.

The first question is the right one, but it's use is not complete in the poster's answer.

It would be correct if he had said:
Ask "are you the truthful dwarf". If he says yes, you know the answer   is either true, spoken by the truthful dwarf, or, it is a lie, by a semi-liar. Thus ask "who is the truthful dwarf?", and his answer will be   the truthful dwarf, for in both cases the next answer will be truthful.

If at first he says no, then you know that the   next question must be a lie. Thus ask "who among your group is not the   truthful dwarf?" and his answer will be the truthful dwarf.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 06:16:44 am by martinuzz »
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kaypy

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Re: Riddles - Dwarf style
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2011, 05:45:36 am »

Its actually a trick question. The narrator is lying when he says that they ever escaped the forest.

I've seen dwarves and their "grab the sock in a seige, build the wall from the wrong side, dig out the ground we're standing on" antics. Solving logic puzzles? Hah!

No, there were 184 dwarves stuck in the forest by the time the FPS got so low that Armok gave up and magma-flooded the site.
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Gatleos

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Re: Riddles - Dwarf style
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2011, 07:08:38 am »

Its actually a trick question. The narrator is lying when he says that they ever escaped the forest.

I've seen dwarves and their "grab the sock in a seige, build the wall from the wrong side, dig out the ground we're standing on" antics. Solving logic puzzles? Hah!

No, there were 184 dwarves stuck in the forest by the time the FPS got so low that Armok gave up and magma-flooded the site.
That's how you solve a Dwarven riddle!
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martinuzz

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Re: Riddles - Dwarf style
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2011, 07:10:49 am »

There once was a legendary dwarven adventurer who, after having killed all the semi-megabeasts, then all megabeasts, and all titans in the world, was given a task by the Lawspeaker of a human town that he hadn't burned yet.
"Take this map, adventurer! On it is the location of Armok's Pipe, an old, dormant volcano. Travel there, and brave it's horrors, for at the bottom you will find the greatest treasure of all, The XXAdamantine SockXX that was once worn by Armok himself!
Once you arrive, you will also need this."
The king hands the adventurer a map, and a scroll. On the scroll is a long string of numbers.
"Those numbers are said to hold the key to finding the sock. Memorize them, for if you lose them, you will never find it!"

Now, our adventurer had never been good at appraising, or bookkeeping. In fact, it was this, that had thrown him on the path of adventure in the first place. He had arrived as a migrant soapmaker, to be welcomed by the Duke.
"Oh, hello there, migrant. Soapmaker, you say? Hmm.. Well... Erm.. Ah! Our bookkeeper recently passed away due to an unfortunate accident. You don't happen to be any good at bookkeeping, are you?"
"I'm afraid not. Sorry"
"Ah well.. Perhaps you can replace our trader. He has been elected mayor, and likes adamantine, so we're not expecting him to be around much longer. You *can* do that, can you?"
"I'm afraid I'm rather horrible with numbers, sir. Hey - I'm a soapmaker"
"Hrmpf. Okay then. There's a lever 3 z-levels down that needs pulling. Could you..?"

Even though our adventurer couldn't count any further than the 9 fingers on his hands, he wasn't daft. "Pull the lever" equalled "get out of here fast" in his vocabulary. And thus he had left in a hurry, and started out on his path of adventures.

Now here he was, trying to memorize a long string of numbers written on a scroll that smelled like old plump helmets.
Failing this, he decided to tuck away the scroll between his 4th and 5th cloak, and keep it there safely.
He set off with the morning sun, and arrived at Armok's Pipe a few days later.
The entrance to the volcano was blocked off by deep chasm. At the other side stood an old dwarf, with his hand on a lever, ready to pull it.

"Hold! What is your business here?"
"I have come to seek The XXAdamantine SockXX, let me pass!"
The old dwarf pulled the lever, and a retractable bridge appeared over the chasm
"Now, please, move to the middle of the bridge, and then answer me three questions! Not one... Not two... But three questions shall I ask you! Only when you answer truthfully, will you be allowed to pass! If by any chance, you have been hexed by Armok, and are a semi-liar, please turn back and seek help in the previous riddle!"
"Uh.. Okay.."
The adventurer moved to the middle of the bridge, and the old dwarf proceeded to ask the first question.
"What is your name?"
"Urist."
"Very well. Not very original, but I sense you speak truth."
"Okay, the second question.
What is your favourite colour?"
"Lavender blush."
"You disgust me. But, very well, it seems you spoke truth again."
"Third and last: What color doth have a gibbon?"
"Erm.. Would that be a white-handed or a black-handed gibbon?"
"I dunno. Wait.. I know that one.. You're not fooling me.. Now you want me to step onto that bridge, and throw myself off, right? Begone, scum!"
With these words, the old dwarf pulls the lever again, and the bridge retracts. Urist falls down several z-levels, only to plunge into a cave river. Over his years of adventurer, he has become quite the swimmer, and so, he easily swims it upstream, into the caves below Armok's Pipe.
To his great joy and surprise, the cave river leads to a familiar sight: the entrance to the vault that holds The XXAdamantine SockXX
He opens the vault door, to find himself in a large room, with many levers neatly arranged into a long row.
Two of the room's side walls have been lined with bauxite floodgates, and the room itself is very hot.
There is a locked adamantine door. It is studded with gold. On the door is an image of The XXAdamantine SockXX in adamantine.

"So.. I guess this is what the numbers are for.. I guess I must pull the right levers, in the right order", thinks Urist.
He takes the scroll out of his cloaks.
To his horror, his detour through the cave river has managed to completely soak the scroll. Most of the ink has washed off, leaving only 6 numbers legible:

1,  3,  7,  12,  18,  26,  ..., ..., ..., ...

Urist pulls the 1st lever from the row. He hears a click, but nothing else happens. The same happens when he pulls the 3d, 7th, 12th, 18th and 26th lever.
Judging to the empty spots on the paper, Urist needs to pull 4 more levers, to unlock the adamantine door.
Pulling the wrong lever will almost certainly release fiery death upon him.

What are the numbers of the 4 levers that Urist needs to pull?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 07:15:32 am by martinuzz »
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Shades

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Re: Riddles - Dwarf style
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2011, 07:15:55 am »

Are we counting the previous one as solved then? :) despite the whole issues around the results of a lie.

Is this one 35, 45, 56, 69 btw?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 07:21:23 am by Shades »
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Its like playing god with sentient legos. - They Got Leader
[Dwarf Fortress] plays like a dizzyingly complex hybrid of Dungeon Keeper and The Sims, if all your little people were manic-depressive alcoholics. - tv tropes
You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right. - xkcd

martinuzz

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Re: Riddles - Dwarf style
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2011, 07:24:49 am »

Barring the "I don't know" reply to a question, it is solved. I guess the "I don't know" reply makes it unsolvable, so there should be some rule that disallows that.
I think it could be worked around, if the original riddle is altered such that:

- the 6 dwarves do *NOT* know who is the truthspeaker amongst them
- all 6 know which way to get out of the forest, but can only tell when asked

In that case, Urist needs only 2 questions total, to know how to get out:

1) are you the truthspeaker?

if yes >> 2a) which way to go to get out of the forest?
if no >> 2b) which way not to go to get out of the forest?
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

martinuzz

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Re: Riddles - Dwarf style
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2011, 07:25:57 am »

Is this one 35, 45, 56, 69 btw?

Yes, very good. Would you care to explain why?
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We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

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Gatleos

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Re: Riddles - Dwarf style
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2011, 07:29:31 am »

Is this one 35, 45, 56, 69 btw?

Yes, very good. Would you care to explain why?

Shouldn't it be 35, 45, 57, 70? Following the pattern and all...
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