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[Grakelin]

I'm confused about what is going on here.

But I think that the irresponsibility of the Tea Party 'targeting' certain congresspeople has about as much to do with Loughner as the irresponsibility of not paying your taxes has to do with the feeding habits of wolves in Southeast Asia.

In that they don't have causation on each other at all, and they aren't mutually exclusive to one another. If Loughner didn't decide to shoot people because the Tea Party told him to, that doesn't mean suggesting violence to your followers is no longer irresponsible. Nikov seems to understand that, but he's getting a lot of grief from people who feel that he must be claiming the opposite.

I don't understand why I always seem to be the one who has to stand up for Nikov, when the two of us are the ones most likely to fight to the death if the 'civil war' somebody suggested a dozen pages back ever came to be.

[Aqizzar]

In that they don't have causation on each other at all, and they aren't mutually exclusive to one another. If Loughner didn't decide to shoot people because the Tea Party told him to, that doesn't mean suggesting violence to your followers is no longer irresponsible.

This is exactly what I've been saying from the start, and I don't specifically see where anyone else has been saying different.  Further comments, about Nikov specifically, were here but serve no purpose.

[Nikov]

You know Aqizzar, you and I really only talk when we're arguing about something. Two people constantly in adversarial postures are going to start suspecting the other person is always being a dick. Maybe we should do some other activity so we can see the other in a different light.

World of Tanks maybe?

[Aqizzar]

I could give it a shot.  I seem to remember you talking about hosting a Minecraft server; not that my performance is usually good enough for MP.

[Nikov]

Oh God. Minecraft. I can think of no worse place to meet. Two people already at odds attempting to construct a monument to their own vanity together with random, unexplained explosions blasting holes in it?

I've got, uh... Men of War Assault Squad (free beta) Arma: Combined Ops (run with a good group there) World of Tanks (free beta) M&B Warband, Alien Swarm (free on Steam, coopish). Maybe even (le gasp) year by year Dwarf Fortress.

[Aqizzar]

I'd hate to think this is just a proposal to mete out aggression in nonverbal format, but I'm game for what little I can run.  At any rate, the point is made, and the thread doesn't need this; discussing it in private should be fine.

[ChairmanPoo]

Oh God. Minecraft. I can think of no worse place to meet. Two people already at odds attempting to construct a monument to their own vanity together with random, unexplained explosions blasting holes in it?

Build a giant banana!

[mainiac]

But I think that the irresponsibility of the Tea Party 'targeting' certain congresspeople has about as much to do with Loughner as the irresponsibility of not paying your taxes has to do with the feeding habits of wolves in Southeast Asia.

If half of the crazy shit the tea party said were true rather then absurd, childish lies, then the logical course of action would be armed rebellion against the US government.

If we actually did live in a country that was being usurped by a Manchurian candidate.  If they actually did want to start forcefully euthenizing grandma.  If that kind of stuff was true, then it would make sense to start the second amendment solutions.  But we don't live in a world like that.  We don't remotely.  We live in a country where the majority barely has the power to pass laws that the opposition dreamed up 15 or 20 years ago.

We have politicians who aren't just playing with fire, they are playing with fire in a dynamite factory.  They don't just say "kill them" they tell people with a straight face that we are actually going to dictatorship.  They repeat this overblown rhetoric for months and months and months, saying death panels and birth certificate and socialist plots.  If they're words are taken at face value, they are making a persuasive argument that it is the time for revolution.  They don't just say "have a revolution" they say exactly what they want to fight against.

Most people can see that their bogeyman is imaginary, that they are just engaging in overly enthusiastic political rhetoric.  But most people don't go and try to kill their congresswoman.  This crazy man honestly believed that we were living in a dictatorship.  An evil dictatorship that needed a revolution.  It's not exactly a huge leap to say that we need to take a long, hard look at the party that has spent the past two years relentlessly repeating the idea that we are turning into an evil dictatorship.

[G-Flex]

We have politicians who aren't just playing with fire, they are playing with fire in a dynamite factory.  They don't just say "kill them" they tell people with a straight face that we are actually going to dictatorship.  They repeat this overblown rhetoric for months and months and months, saying death panels and birth certificate and socialist plots.  If they're words are taken at face value, they are making a persuasive argument that it is the time for revolution.  They don't just say "have a revolution" they say exactly what they want to fight against.

In a way, this is dog-whistle politics. You don't have to say anything about "revolution" (although that has been done too) when you know exactly what words to say to make people think the word themselves.

[Nikov]

And the preceeding eight years of Bush=Hitler, 9/11=Reichstag Fire, Guantanamo=Auschwitz rhetoric? Politics as usual, I guess. But now that the rhetoric is on the other side and we have a crisis to boot, lets crack down on freedom of speech.

I suppose that's the bug up my ass about this whole thread.

[Leafsnail]

Bush = Hitler?  Did people really say that?  Apart from anything else, it seems to overestimate his intelligence.

9/11 = Reichstag?  Conspiracy theorist nuts, perhaps.

Guantanamo = Auschwitz?  Yeah, ok, maybe.

Were these linked to "second amendment remedies" though?

[G-Flex]

And the preceeding eight years of Bush=Hitler, 9/11=Reichstag Fire, Guantanamo=Auschwitz rhetoric? Politics as usual, I guess. But now that the rhetoric is on the other side and we have a crisis to boot, lets crack down on freedom of speech.

I suppose that's the bug up my ass about this whole thread.

Who's trying to "crack down on freedom of speech"? Criticizing other people's speech has nothing to do with limiting their rights. If you have a "bug up your ass" about that, then you put it there yourself.

Also, I don't recall a terribly sizable segment of the Left comparing Bush to Hitler. Yes, those people existed, but I don't remember prominent Democratic leaders talking about Bush literally being a fascist or a Nazi, or talking about armed revolt or anything like that.


Also: Whether or not the rhetoric was bad during the Bush administration has no bearing on whether it's bad now. You're trying to dodge the issue again by shifting blame and saying "well, YOUR guys are just as bad".

Seriously, I don't think we had an equivalent analogue to the Tea Party back during the Bush years.

[Aqizzar]

And the preceeding eight years of Bush=Hitler, 9/11=Reichstag Fire, Guantanamo=Auschwitz rhetoric? Politics as usual, I guess. But now that the rhetoric is on the other side and we have a crisis to boot, lets crack down on freedom of speech.

Once again, point to an actual Congressman who said 9/11 was an inside job, or any such wild fantasies.  What happened over Bush administration was the occasional overblown protester, like Code Pink or whatever, making wild statements like that, and then the right would call for the blood of liberals until they denounced their craziest associates, which Democratic office holders would practically line up to do.  Now it's actual sitting Republican Congressmen saying insurance reimbursement for end of life counseling is Obama hovering around the hospital room waiting to pull the plug.

It is really so extraordinary to be held to the same unreasonable standard?

[fqllve]

Bush = Hitler?  Did people really say that?  Apart from anything else, it seems to overestimate his intelligence.

Yeah, people really did. But Hitler wasn't known for his intelligence either. It's just that the man was furious while Bush was almost terminally laid back.

Oh yeah, and the genocide thing.

Guantanamo = Auschwitz?  Yeah, ok, maybe.

No. No no no. I don't like Guantanamo but comparing it to Auschwitz is too far. The only possible American comparison to Auschwitz is the internment camps, and even there it's a matter of large degree.

[Nikov]

And the preceeding eight years of Bush=Hitler, 9/11=Reichstag Fire, Guantanamo=Auschwitz rhetoric? Politics as usual, I guess. But now that the rhetoric is on the other side and we have a crisis to boot, lets crack down on freedom of speech.

Once again, point to an actual Congressman who said 9/11 was an inside job, or any such wild fantasies.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1557447/Bush-like-Hitler-says-first-Muslim-in-Congress.html

Sure thing. I'm none to interested in a "but point to a X who said Y" fight because I don't want to be here for the next ten hours, however.