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Author Topic: Proceedurally Generated RTS  (Read 57130 times)

Antsan

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Re: Proceedurally Generated RTS
« Reply #225 on: February 06, 2011, 12:58:49 pm »

Okay, I gonna reiterate the idea once again *before* sleeping because I am just not in the mood for waiting right now.

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What would be the point?
You have trouble finding balance in the game. You want balance in tictactoe style. You try to find this balance in the ships. I try to find this balance in the stats.
You say Tank beats DD beats strategic beats Tank (or something like that). I say speed beats strength beats range beats speed (or something like that). Combine both and they will adopt to each other. I expect faster convergence on a fitting solution or even the faster occurence of the possibility of a fitting solution.

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I cannot simply let the program decide that 10 hitpoints is worth the same as 5 damage or 30 hit points is 3 damage or (god forbid!) that 5 hitpoints is worth 15 damage!  It doesn't work that way.
When the program should decide to try that it will most likely find that this does not lead to tictactoe. Those parameters will *die*

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There is no "expected value." :|
Oh yes, there is. Any non-infinite random value has an expected value and you are using non-infinite random values.

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TOO far out of scope.  I'm not dealing with populations in the dozens, I'm dealing with 10-12 individuals whos "lives" make up more than 90% of the operational cycles of the program.  I need fewer cycles not more.
You would run my version of the algorithm once, to find parameters that most likely generate a triangle. Don't change the rest of the mechanics and you won't have to change those parameters. You run it exactly once per update of game-mechanics. You actually run it *before* you "ship" the game.

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've been fixing the ratios/min/max etc. of the algorithm, because it is trivially easy to let some value exceed a threshold where upon the unit is unbeatable.  This is why a random RNG is not a good idea.  I am not even going to explain why two levels of random is a god-awful idea (mainly because it makes it Fcking Impossible with a capital F and I to debug).
Sorry, I don't know much about Flash, I just keep on thinking generic programming here, functional programming there, code-writing code over there... My god, you don't have a randomly written function, you just evolve parameters to a random number generator, it's not like you are changing actual code beyond writing a generalized rng and running an evolution on parameters. When a unit is unbeatable, the game should detect this and change the rules in a way, that an unbeatable unit gets less likely, or to put it in another way: Out with discriminating parameters! Kill em off, they're not even human, replace them with fairer ones! :P
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Draco18s

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Re: Proceedurally Generated RTS
« Reply #226 on: February 06, 2011, 01:40:10 pm »

You're trying to genetically engineer the program that makes the ships, not genetically engineer the ships, that's where your going wrong.

I am not having trouble finding balance, that I know is there.  Yes, I went through a few iterations before I found an algorithm that works, and may still tweak it here and there, but that isn't my issue.  My issue is having the program locate a triangle.  On occasion it will get one of the edges backwards.
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Draco18s

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Re: Proceedurally Generated RTS
« Reply #227 on: March 01, 2011, 02:03:07 pm »

Not an update, but I've been having fun with an algorithm I (long ago) found here and ended up with this.  There are 2^70 (1.18 sextillion) possible combinations.

(I apologize, but because I'm fooling around there's no "generate another" button, you'll have to reload the page).
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Mephansteras

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Re: Proceedurally Generated RTS
« Reply #228 on: March 01, 2011, 02:04:43 pm »

That's pretty awesome!
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Akhier the Dragon hearted

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Re: Proceedurally Generated RTS
« Reply #229 on: March 01, 2011, 02:06:34 pm »

   I agree, that is awsome! Good luck in putting it all
together. With that you could really improve the look
of what you have right now.
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Join us. The crazy is at a perfect temperature today.
So it seems I accidentally put my canteen in my wheelbarrow and didn't notice... and then I got really thirsty... so right before going to sleep I go to take a swig from my canteen and... end up snorting a line of low-grade meth.

Draco18s

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Re: Proceedurally Generated RTS
« Reply #230 on: March 01, 2011, 02:44:42 pm »

   I agree, that is awsome! Good luck in putting it all
together. With that you could really improve the look
of what you have right now.

Exactly what I was thinking.  I've tweaked it so that the wings can get shorter (like the nose can) for a little more distinct variation.  Haven't done colors yet.
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Proceedurally Generated RTS
« Reply #231 on: March 01, 2011, 06:42:21 pm »

how are you going to make the ships rotate?

Draco18s

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Re: Proceedurally Generated RTS
« Reply #232 on: March 01, 2011, 06:49:14 pm »

how are you going to make the ships rotate?

I will probably take a more macro view of things, these only being icons (like farzoom of SupCom or AI War).  I will probably also desire some additional designs for different base shapes.
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Virex

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Re: Proceedurally Generated RTS
« Reply #233 on: March 01, 2011, 07:00:22 pm »

Can't you apply rotation to the image directly? I think most graphics libraries allow arbitrary rotation of sprites.
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Draco18s

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Re: Proceedurally Generated RTS
« Reply #234 on: March 01, 2011, 07:03:00 pm »

Can't you apply rotation to the image directly? I think most graphics libraries allow arbitrary rotation of sprites.

You can.  It doesn't always look nice, but you can.

I'm trying to think up a way to "scale up" these images in such a way as to fill in details (or generate higher-res versions first and scale down).  But I don't know if it'd work.
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squeakyReaper

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Re: Proceedurally Generated RTS
« Reply #235 on: March 01, 2011, 07:22:30 pm »

I once made a small SHMUP where you could design your own fighter using lines and whatnot.  I didn't want the cramped look that some sprites can give though.  So what I did was make the game themed in the same way that Geometry Wars was done; polygons.  It was really easy to rotate vectors and lines.  That might not be your alley, but if you want to it's an aesthetic that you could take.
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Draco18s

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Re: Proceedurally Generated RTS
« Reply #236 on: March 01, 2011, 08:32:04 pm »

True.  But not looking to go that route.  Too abstract for my tastes (not that there's anything wrong with geometry wars).
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Akhier the Dragon hearted

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Re: Proceedurally Generated RTS
« Reply #237 on: March 01, 2011, 08:36:06 pm »

   If you want to have it face different directions you
could always just have it only face up, down, left, or right.
Then there would be no change in the image other than
its facing. It would look weird when going diagonal but
better then having it go down while facing up.
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Quote
Join us. The crazy is at a perfect temperature today.
So it seems I accidentally put my canteen in my wheelbarrow and didn't notice... and then I got really thirsty... so right before going to sleep I go to take a swig from my canteen and... end up snorting a line of low-grade meth.

Draco18s

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Re: Proceedurally Generated RTS
« Reply #238 on: March 01, 2011, 08:56:09 pm »

   If you want to have it face different directions you
could always just have it only face up, down, left, or right.
Then there would be no change in the image other than
its facing. It would look weird when going diagonal but
better then having it go down while facing up.

I am aware of non-lossy pixel based rotations, thank you.  I did go through digial art school.
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Akhier the Dragon hearted

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Re: Proceedurally Generated RTS
« Reply #239 on: March 01, 2011, 09:04:46 pm »

   Cool, I wish I was done with school.
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Quote
Join us. The crazy is at a perfect temperature today.
So it seems I accidentally put my canteen in my wheelbarrow and didn't notice... and then I got really thirsty... so right before going to sleep I go to take a swig from my canteen and... end up snorting a line of low-grade meth.
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